PETE H RF-7 crossover pics

[InVeNtOr]

hey pete h i didn't receive your e mail address so i posted it here. i guess this way i am open to critics.

my rf-7 crossover:

what's done:

clairity cap sa caps

jantzen superior z cap (stacked with clairity cap - 5uf-)

mills resistor

gold plated "WBT" binding posts

replaced monster wire at posts with mil spec wire (needed to because the monster couldn't take the heat of the soldering. i needed to use a 100watt soldering iron to be able to heat that post up.)

removed jumpers (soldered 2 12awg conductors)

had to swap board positions because of size of caps

twisted the stock monster wires going to the speakers

can't see it but my horn has a special foam to cuts out the harshness. that's why i didn't install the 10olm resistor dean suggested.

the tye wrap there is just there to support the caps. it's actually really loose. i didn't want to weight of those caps (over time) to spread out and weaken the solder. don't know if that would actually happen but adding the tye wrap only took seconds.

so here's my crossover, i think it sounds amazing! i'd say to all RF-7 owners to get this done. i don't mean you have to copy me, just simply get the crossover upgraded. save up if you have to and send them to dean. he's the man in these parts that does it and i haven't heard one complaint about his work, turn around, final product, or anything. i'd say hands down the first and best upgraded you can do. i would put it WAY over buing emotiva UMC-1 and a complete set of new amps. you will not short changed by getting this done. the reason i didn't go through dean is becasue i know how to solder, i am a mod freak, and i wanted to push the crossover upgrade to the max. i am even going to redo the LF board. after i spoke to sonic craft i feel doing the upgrade will only help out. it's not that much money either. dean's real cool, (if you actually get a chance to talk to that busy man!) he will sort of walk you through the process, in fact there is a post around here where is gives a short step by step direction.

anyways hope you like it!

[InVeNtOr]

wire

[InVeNtOr]

caps 1

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caps 2 and mills resistor

[InVeNtOr]

caps 3

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caps 4

[InVeNtOr]

jatzen superior z cap stacked (5uf)

[InVeNtOr]

duplicate pic

[InVeNtOr]

btw the "tape" you see on the stock monster wires is teflon tape. i had it there so i can twist the wires. i left it on for no particular reason. doesn't do anything. just in case someone notices.....lol

[capo72]

How much did it cost you do do this? I given some thought to upgrading my crossovers. Problem is there are (5) RF-7's in my Home Theater set up. So the cost multiplies quickly. They are finally out of warranty so I've been thinking about it lately.

Jeremy

[InVeNtOr]

the only true answer i can give you is dean's price. caps cost different amounts. there's really expencive ones and cheap ones. i think i spent around $100 for all 3 speakers (rf-7 and rc-7). you can go to madisound and get the clairity cap price and parts express for the jantzen. a better route (now that i know) is going to sonic craft (located in arkansaw) has 20% off everything and has all the EXACT values. that way you don't have to stack like i had to. they also carry mills resistors. a great all in 1 shop. i plan on going to sonic craft to get more mills resistors and caps to do the LF board. also their caps are smaller so they fit better. my crossover in my rc-7 is super close because of these caps.

i would strongly suggest doing the upgrade. give sonic craft a call or at least go to the web site and get the prices and see.

[Guest davidness]

Am I right in thinking that you 'simply' performed a one-for-one replacement of standard components with premium quality components of the same values, and in the case of your 'stacked' capacitors, you did this because you couldn't find a specific value, so you connected them in parallel using the equation:

C_T = C₁ + C₂

I realize that you also replaced the binding post (nice move) and tied the bi-wire/bi-amp inputs together.

Is there a brand of capacitor that is considered the very best?

Were the components of the RC-7 exactly the same as the RF-7's, or slightly different?

Thanks. I'm building up the nerve to attempt this myself, although I might just have the professional (DeanG) do them for me.

Also, I asked this before and didn't get a response; Should I look into doing this for my RB-75 surrounds as well? I almost never hear of anybody updating this crossover, though, I would think that it might also benefit. I do realize that, used as surrounds, the level of output probably doesn't warrant the trouble and expense. It's not like I'm using them as my mains.

[InVeNtOr]

yeah, it's that simple. now if you change out the binding posts you may run into a problem. if you get a post like mine, it accepts 8awg wire. to be able to solder to it, you will need a 100w soldering iron and a type of wire that can handle the heat. the monster wire in there will melt. i know, it did it to me. if you don't have a good teflon based wire, i'd suggest putting a terminal lug on it and call it good.

i had to stack the 5uf cap because clarity cap sa doesn't make a 5uf. some people stack so they get the benefit of 2 really good caps into 1. it's like a recipe (as an example). i did my crossovers before i found out about sonic craft. they have the exact values you need so you don't have to buy 2 caps to make 1.

the best brand of cap is an on going debate. it comes down to the person reviewing them and with what gear they did it with. i personally , don't know. i went for the ones i used because they were rated very good and were cheaper. some of these caps are sold for $200 each. i just don't have that kind of cash.

the rc-7 has different values. if you need the rf-7 and rc-7 diagram, e mail me with your e mail address and i'll send them to you. you can also call klipsch tech support and they will send it. what ever you like.

dean does good work, you can't go wrong with sending the crossovers to him. if you can't solder, i strongly suggest sending them. if you don't have a good soldering iron, or good technique you can burn the board and basically toast it (no pun intended).

if you upgrade your rb-75's you will get a better sound. most people don't do it because they usually use them as surrounds. i am going to do my rs-42's because when you upgrade the caps you get much more clarity. thats exactly what i want out of my surrounds. i am also going to do the binding posts, just because. the crossover in it is so small and simple it won't cost much at all to do the 2 caps and 1 resistor.

[Deang]

If you build them the way I do it will cost you $164.46 plus whatever partsexpress charges you for shipping. I use Kimbers in series with the horn and a Janzten Crosscap for the larger 18uF value. I don't change the cap on the LF board anymore -- if it's doing anything you sure can't hear it (at least I can't)

Please don't call or email for help unless it's a simple question or two. Some guys get into this and run into trouble -- they then want me to talk them through the whole project or write a tutorial for them.

[InVeNtOr]

there's the man!

hey there dean. when i spoke to sonic craft he suggested the LF board because it blends the woofer and tweeter a little better. that's pretty much it. like you said you don't hear a difference if there is any. i am thinking of do it, for just because reasons. i still haven't made a concrete decision because funds are lacking right now.

quick question, do you use hot glue or silicone to secure the caps down? i didn't use anything because the caps were so tight in there i really couldn't. only 1 cap could benifit from it and at that point i said the heck with it. lol. that's one of the reasons i wouldn't use clairity cap sa again, just too big.

[Pete H]

If I'm not mistaken, Dean, in an old thread, used hot glue to secure the caps. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong[]. Thanks for posting the pics and the information on your upgrade. Sounds like Dean has had more than one panic call from people that couldn't quite get the job done. Here's the question I have, when you're building a speaker that costs 2,000 and up, why wouldn't a company use better parts to begin with? I'm not knocking Klipsch at all, but that just doesn't make any sense to me since there are more post on this site regarding crossover upgrades for all of the lines than I can count. I do understand that there's a point of diminishing returns in manufacturing, but it seems to be the weakest link in the line. I hope that we can get a response from some Employee's on this, but when I've asked this question in the past, I haven't gotten a response.

[Deang]

I use hot-melt. I would prefer to use something else, but everything else takes too long to set and I need to get the work off the bench and into the mail (people don't like down time).

I had an at-length discussion with Mark Blanchard (Professor Thump) over this cap thing. There is no significant or real measured difference between different capacitors of the same type that accounts for what people are hearing (or not hearing). So, if you can't measure a difference, there is no difference. Good Engineers put a lot of trust in the numbers and I find it difficult to fault them for that. OTOH, I hear what I hear, and I'm tired of trying to defend it, and so I just stay out of the controversy.

Klipsch uses good Mylars in the Heritage Series and "good" polypropylenes in Reference -- none of the stuff they are currently using is "junk" -- but for whatever reason, big thick filmed polypropylenes sound sooo much better to me. True film and foils like the PPT Theta are even cleaner, but most just can't afford them.

[Guest davidness]

(edited out some of the ramblings)

I see you're using those big 630VDC Clarity Caps, instead of the Kimber Kap 200V caps that DeanG usually spec's. I take this to mean that as long as the rating is the same (5.0uF, 12uF, 18uF), the voltage rating can be varied (larger), correct? (Yes, that was a newbie questions, but I'm learning fast). That leads to the question; is the bigger voltage rating of the Clarity Cap SA's in and of itself better? (630Vdc vs. 200Vdc)

From Parts Express, I see the Jantzen 18uF runs $8.16 each, and the Auricap 18uF runs $61.23 each. Would an upgrade here make sense, for example?

Sorry about the rambling post. I'm sort of working this out as I compose it. The one thing that I'm beginning to believe is this: DeanG has probably already looked at all of these options, and weighed the cost/benefits, and arrived that the Kimber Kap/Jantzen/Mills solution as the best, with maybe a consideration of the Audiocaps PPT Theta or Auricaps. I just want to avoid missing out on an even better selection of components if the price difference is only $50-100 per network additional.

Thanks for any and all comments.

[InVeNtOr]

no it's a good question.

from what i understand the voltage has no effect on the sound. it simply means those parts can withstand that voltage. now i don't think anyone (especially someone who owns RF-7's) can get their speakers to draw that much voltage. remember, if you have a million watt amp, that doesn't mean your speaker is actually using a million watts. it has a million watts AVAILABLE. it will only use what it needs. (sorry if you know that, i am assuming some else who reads this might not know).

the jantzen 18uf cap would (IMHO) would be a horrible choice. (unless you have millions in the bank account). the 18uf cap is in PARALLEL. the caps that matter the most are in SERIES. the first cap is critical, the second, not as much. in the RF-7 it's the 5uf and RC-7 the 3.75uf. if you want to "get the most out of it, buy the "best" cap for those two values. some people would even suggest leaving the stock one (18uf) alone. i figure if you are replacing the other two, might as well replace the third.

(if i remember correctly) dean is in a very good position to do these upgrades. he lives near parts express. they know him quite well. he is allowed to go to the cap bins and pick and choose what ever ones he likes. he gets to "match" them for free, cherry pick if you like, and doesn't have to pay that first round of shipping (ultimately saves you). i am sure since he lives close by and has been doing this for quite some time he has tested several different caps in RF-7's. i purchased the clarity caps sa's because i was trying to save some cash. i decided on that brand because of a someone else doing testing on other speakers and trusted his decision. it turned out to benefit me. the caps i have sound really nice. (a little big, but i can't complain about that). i was also informed by Sonic Craft that the Auricap is a better cap than Clarity Cap SA.

here's one of the most important pieces of information. some caps or designed to be used in a 2ch environment. i am not talking about Reference speakers with a PS3 as the CD player. i am talking about 5k+ cd players, Heritage speakers (or some other really expensive brand i don't know about), tube amps, special interconnects, etc. the type of 2ch set up that has a dedicated room, 1 chair, and someone who really likes his music. people forget that HT and 2ch are two totally different monsters. there is almost nothing similar. that's why there is 2 sections on here for them. if you get a chance call Sonic Craft (tech support) and ask about "musical caps" and "HT caps". if you tell him you are putting them into RF-7's and will be using them mainly for HT he won't even try to sell you the musical type of caps at all.

i will stress this again, if you (not you in particular) don't have good to great soldering skills, a good soldering iron, flux (optional), and dewicking, i wouldn't even try this. i have read numerous times dean is more than willing to help people buy the right stuff, but he gets irritated by people who tear their crossovers apart, panic, and call him in desperation. if you think you can't de-solder the caps and re-solder the new ones one, i wouldn't do this. if there is any hint of doubt, DON'T DO IT! i can say this because i have done 6 different crossovers, it can get tricky, especially placing the caps so all of them fit (also depending on which caps you buy and their size). it's better to have him do it right, (and quickly might i add) then to attempt it and potentially screw it up. if you don't solder the caps correctly that will effect the sound. a bad connection will kill your crossover. it's not like if you buy the parts and do it yourself you are saving a ton of money. he doesn't up charge for the parts, just a small fee for actually doing the work. the extra cost only comes from you shipping the crossover to him in the first place. in my book, it's well worth the piece of mind.

[djk]

"So, if you can't measure a difference, there is no difference. "

Polycarbonate measure even better than Polypropylene in many areas, but don't sound very good for audio. Many years ago I ordered a large variety of what Madisound sold. The Dynaudio Polycarbonate caps were quite poor sounding, despite their stellar measurements. Maybe as the years advance and hearing deteriorates, I too, will be reduced to measurments rather than listening.Maybe the meter readers will finally figure out what to measure to determine 'good' sound (not holding my breath).