305 WPC Pure Tube Bliss

[SET12]

One should never run a tube amp without a load.

Dan,

I'm doing something similar. A 20 wpc HH Scott 222c powering the mids-highs on FOUR KLF-30's. It has 4,8 and 16 ohms taps. What do you reccomend? Does powering four speakers rather than only two take up the slack?

Scott, I did what SET12 suggested and noticed better separation between the bass and the mid/highs, thanks SET12.

I ended up using what I found in my basement, used two 33 ohm resistors (2W wire wound) wired in parallel.

Thanks Southern, That's good to hear! [Y]

I read of this trick many yrs ago in Stereophile Magazine. Basically these resistors help keep the amp stable. I think its more common for high frequency stabilization issues than low one's but both can occur.

My only concern is the wattage is sufficient so I would monitor that. Also for an even sweeter presentation if your doing this long term, I would consider a pair of Duelund resistors, I use them across my tweeters and have found nothing even remotely close to their smooth presentation, they are made of Graphite and have a negative temperature coefficient. Most resistors have a positive.

On another note if you look at your Heathkit W5M's on the schematic you'll see what are called tweeter protectors consisting of a resistor and cap for saving the amplifier in the event that a tweeter blows and the amplifier has no load at those frequencies. The tweeter protector then becomes the load saving the amp from destruction. A few other tube amp manufactures also employed these from time to time I see in schematics.

And BTW if you don't have a manual for the W5M you should be able to get it on line, I learned a lot of interesting things from it and it is one of the best amp operating manuals I have ever read IMO. I have spent many hrs listening with W5's and that is one fine amplifier IMO.

Cheers

SET12

[artto]

especially recievers as being really good stuff simply because it fits the definition of "vintage". Those were some of the worse sounding audio components ever made.

That's a very arrogant statement. I agree with most 80's stuff sounding very poor but the 70's stuff just happens to have the "grungy" sound that a lot of us like. I believe that certain types of gear can lend itself to certain types of music. Clean, detailed, transparent sound doesn't always jive with classic rock, hard rock or heavy metal. Sometimes distortion is good as long as everything in the system is working together.

"Tube bliss" I would think describes listening to Diana Krall on an all tube system. Metallica......I doubt it.

Arrogant? Since when has the truth been arrogant?

You may like "grunge". And that's OK. But its still grunge. I would even call that crap grainy and gritty. If that's one's cup of tea go for it!. But that's not what was stated as the subject in the original post. Southern (we spoke about this together yesterday on the phone) described the Pioneer as "very articulate and warm sounding"- like the Dynaco tube amp. We know that is not the case, as SWL also put it, "the 70's stuff just happens to have the grungy sound some of us like". The fact of the matter is both tube and solid state can sound grungy, or warm and articulate.

"Tube bliss" also has nothing to do with listening to Diana Krall, nor Metallica, or any other kind of music (or any other noise or sounds of your choice).

The original statement as put forth by Southern is actually false (not intended so, I'm sure). 275 watts of 1980 Pioneer reciever solid state grunge mixed in with a little bit of Dynaco tube power - 35 watts worth - does not equal 305 watts worth of tube anything.

I can undersatnd the desire for biamping to get the "best of both worlds" so to speak by using solid state amplification on the bass, and tubes on the mid/treble if that's the kind of trade off that works for you. However, if quality is still the issue, the system will only be as good as the weakest link. A 1980 Pioneer SX reciever is not the same thing as using, say, a Crown PSA2 from the same era (same wattage BTW). In any case, the Crown PSA2 will not give you 305 watts of tube bliss when combined with the Dynaco either. At best it's 35 watts of "tube bliss", confined to the midrange and treble. And it certainly may true that the addintional 275 watts/ch on the bass, has reduced some of the demands placed on the 35w/ch tube amp used full range depending on the program material and sound output required from the speakers. But I aver that what Southern is hearing is the "tube sound" in the midrange - "this is where we live" - also somewhat freed up by the addition of another amplifer - one whose sound "quality" is more tolerable in the lower frequencies than it is at higher ones, unless of course you're into the grunge thing. And if thats the case, then why not just use the Pioneer full range? IMHO there's more important things to worry about that make a much bigger difference in performance.

[SWL]

I would even call that crap grainy and gritty

There you go again.

Hey artto......what you call "crap" that is grainy and gritty, is "gold" to many audio enthusiasts.

[Southern]

At best it's 35 watts of "tube bliss", confined to the midrange and treble. And it certainly may true that the addintional 275 watts/ch on the bass, has reduced some of the demands placed on the 35w/ch tube amp used full range depending on the program material and sound output required from the speakers. But I aver that what Southern is hearing is the "tube sound" in the midrange - "this is where we live" - also somewhat freed up by the addition of another amplifer - one whose sound "quality" is more tolerable in the lower frequencies than it is at higher ones, unless of course you're into the grunge thing. And if thats the case, then why not just use the Pioneer full range?

Artto,

I may have not conveyed my set-up to you very clearly. When I hooked-up my Dynaco pre-amp to my Pioneer (running it full range) it sounds very close to my Dynaco amp, with the Pioneer the midrange is a little bit more forward. I made some wiring modifications years ago to my Pioneer and re-discovered what they were today, I have bypassed the pre-amp section from the Pioneer. I am still using the volume control and the inputs (phono, aux, tape) of the Pioneer since they in much better shape the my Dynaco pre-amp.

With my Pioneer (running full range) sounding very close to my Dyanco amp was the premise of the title (even though it is not technically true). I have my system bi-amped since the Dynaco is a bit less forward in the midrange and it helps heat my basement.

After owning my Pioneer since new for 30 years it is the first time that I have
very closely achived the sound of my Dynaco amp and I am very happy with my system. For those of you who which to comment on how bad my system sounds without hearing it all I can say is "sticks and stones". What is important is the sound of my system to me. I have posted my experience for those of you who have a 70/80's vintage receiver that which to experiement with a tube pre-amp.

[Southern]

SET12,

Thanks again for your advice.

I have the schematic for my Heathkit. I purchased new caps for it when I got it several years ago but it is still sitting. If I had another one I would have stereo but I am not sure what I will end up doing with it.

The resistors are running cool on the back of my Dynaco. I will check out the graphite resistors. When you first alerted me to the potential problem with my set-up I took my meter to the back of my Forte's and was supprised to see that the mid/tweeter section of the crossover was capacitive where the woofer section was resistive. I am new to bi-amping and was use to measuring crossovers in a full range mode which measure as a resistive load.

All is good now.

[SWL]

I did what SET12 suggested

I did as well.......an 8 ohm 20 watt resistor accross the 4 ohm tap on my 222c. It works great. I don't really hear an improvement in sq but having the peace of mind nothing will get damaged works for me. Thanks Dan. [Y]

[bliss53]

There is nothing quite like tube bliss.

[russ69]

........ Sometimes distortion is good as long as everything in the system is working together.......

I can't sign up for that. The music might be distorted but the playback system shouldn't be.

Thanx, Russ

[SWL]

........ Sometimes distortion is good as long as everything in the system is working together.......

I can't sign up for that. The music might be distorted but the playback system shouldn't be. Thanx, Russ

I agree but........Did you ever notice how something that is recorded poorly sounds horrible on a high end system? I mean not even listenable because all of it's flaws are exposed. The same recording on a lesser system can be very enjoyable. There's always a trade off somewhere.

Most of what I listen to is recorded poorly and with distortion. Solid state "poison" that may sound "grainy" and "gritty" works with my burner music. Don't crap all over 70's solid state gear just because of all the hard work and money you've put into your systems.....and like I said before, the guy with shallow pockets that just bought a 70's receiver for $150.00 is probably tickled pink with what he's hearing.

I've heard some high end tube systems that just put me to sleep. Detailed, transparent, natural, big soundstage etc.........but lacked character and liveliness. Not my cup of tea but I'm not going to bash it. I'd rather listen to my restored HK 430 twin powered receiver on some Cornwalls. []

[garymd]

I love my tubes but if I never stumbled across this forum, I would still have the best sounding system on my block running stock 1980 Cornwalls and a vintage 1975 Kenwood KR-9600 receiver with 160 wpc of pure SS bliss.[]

[stormin]

500 WPC of Pure SS Bliss here!!!!!!!!!![Y][H][Y]