I picked up a nice LCR / ESR meter

[JL Sargent]

I found a TH2821B on Ebay which was previously discussed in this thread.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/132068/1338139.aspx#1338139

I purchased one of these meters and have found it to be a nice meter. I have tested a couple doz. capacitors with it using the 1Khz test freq. and found it to be very informative. It displays the information as ESR and Q in the resistance parameter. I tested several oil filled caps and every time the old stuff tested much higher in ESR (bad) and lower in Q (bad). I have pictured here a brand new oil filled cap. Indicates to me that a new oil cap can have pretty decent numbers with ESR at .0247 and q over 600.

[JL Sargent]

Now to check an old oil cap to see what a few years can do to those numbers.

[JL Sargent]

Used Bob Crites' general criteria of ESR for cap condition I believe the first cap is indeed a good one. Also the second cap having an ESR > .5 ohms is old and not so good. Searching and reading previous posts on this topic has been a huge help. My reading would point to Bob prefering the ESR test and AL K. seems to prefer Q. But I think Dennis hit it on the head when he said those both can indicate cap condition. (if I might paraphrase him on that).

[JL Sargent]

I inspected my Belles and found a real mess. One speaker original oil caps and the other had "SiderealKaps". I thought the SiderealKaps tested pretty good here until I tested one of the new Solens. Here is the 10uf SiderealKap being tested. Looks like .11 on ESR and 142 on Q. Certainly not terrible.

[JL Sargent]

Now for comparison is a new Solens cap. Check out the really good Q of 2311 and ESR of .0075, WOw, not much loss in that puppy!.

[deafbykhorns]

That Solen test is probably why Al chose these for his early Universal Xover designs.

[boom3]

Good to see the Solen results since I have used in them most recent projects, including recapping my DQ-10s:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5861

[JL Sargent]

I'm just wondering how other new caps would test vs. these Solens. Also, is there a direct relationship between ESR, Q, and the sound characteristics of new caps. Yes, I could easily hear the difference between worn out high ESR oils vs the new Solens in my Belles. But could I hear the difference the many new cap offerings out there a person might try? I know these things can be so subjective.

[boom3]

I'm just wondering how other new caps would test vs. these Solens. Also, is there a direct relationship between ESR, Q, and the sound characteristics of new caps. Yes, I could easily hear the difference between worn out high ESR oils vs the new Solens in my Belles. But could I hear the difference the many new cap offerings out there a person might try? I know these things can be so subjective.

Oh boy. There have been many, many posts on that question. As with any mod, try one at a time, and get opinions of other (even non-audio) people. My experience has been that the difference between electrolytics and film types is very distinct, and film types are an improvement. Between film types, the differences, to me, are very subtle to the vanishing point. Let's remember that modern film types also have greater stability over time, and that alone is reason enough for a recap. My DQ-10 recapping was a lifetime fix. Unless I change out the piezo for a ribbon, I don't see touching the crossovers again.

[JL Sargent]

I would be interested in test data comparing these characteristics in the many new cap offerings out there. I wonder if there is a "study" of such on the net. Not so much the subjective differences in how they might sound that folks get caught up in, but rather hard data such as ESR, Q, D, etc.

[ka7niq]

I would be interested in test data comparing these characteristics in the many new cap offerings out there. I wonder if there is a "study" of such on the net. Not so much the subjective differences in how they might sound that folks get caught up in, but rather hard data such as ESR, Q, D, etc.

Great thread! Of course, this all assumes low ESR is always desirable, and it is not. Not always. Go to classicspeakerpages.com and read what Ken Kantor has to say about Low Esr Caps.Often, the ESR of the original cap was taken into account in the crossover design. Replace it with a low ESR Cap, you change the crossover. You may, or may not like this change, depends. I just recapped my E/V Sentry III's with OEM type caps, did not like it, so I am trying some Low ESR Solens and Paralleld older Poly caps, just for a change of pace. I wish I had me one of them meters !!!

[JL Sargent]

I did find that/those articles about adding ESR on classicspeakerpages.NET

I don't know how much of all that I buy. Seems like the lower the ESR the better......I'm mostly replacing old very high ESR stuff with new very low ESR stuff in my networks and it sounds much better to me. Questions about voicing of original speakers from 30yrs ago and trying to add ESR in those networks I will leave to others. I will say that replacing oil filled with the Solens poly did bring out more brightness in my case. I simply tamed that aspect with my preamp.

[ka7niq]

I did find that/those articles about adding ESR on classicspeakerpages.NET

I don't know how much of all that I buy. Seems like the lower the ESR the better......I'm mostly replacing old very high ESR stuff with new very low ESR stuff in my networks and it sounds much better to me. Questions about voicing of original speakers from 30yrs ago and trying to add ESR in those networks I will leave to others. I will say that replacing oil filled with the Solens poly did bring out more brightness in my case. I simply tamed that aspect with my preamp.

I posted in the surplus capacitors thread the result of a test done on
the 10uf Madisound Surplus Poly Caps, they are low ESR, except up at
10K, but I will not be using them up that high.

[JL Sargent]

I just did a thorough reading of that article and I'd say adding ESR to speaker circuits to emulate original caps in old speakers is not good. Did any of these caps have a high ESR when new? I suspect not. Look at the new AC motor run cap test above. Even it has a nice low ESR of .02 when new.

When you change out your old high ESR caps with any new audio quality caps the speakers will sound brighter. As the ESR goes down, db goes up. That sound should be much more like what was originally intended instead of the sound heard through 30yr old caps with poor, highly resistive connections.

[Blvdre]

Great thread! Of course, this all assumes low ESR is always desirable, and it is not. Not always. Go to classicspeakerpages.com and read what Ken Kantor has to say about Low Esr Caps.Often, the ESR of the original cap was taken into account in the crossover design. Replace it with a low ESR Cap, you change the crossover. You may, or may not like this change, depends. I just recapped my E/V Sentry III's with OEM type caps, did not like it, so I am trying some Low ESR Solens and Paralleld older Poly caps, just for a change of pace. I wish I had me one of them meters !!!

I know this has been mentioned several times before, but you're better off using a high quality cap w/low ESR in series with a resistor, rather than a bad cap with high ESR.

[ka7niq]

Great thread! Of course, this all assumes low ESR is always desirable, and it is not. Not always. Go to classicspeakerpages.com and read what Ken Kantor has to say about Low Esr Caps.Often, the ESR of the original cap was taken into account in the crossover design. Replace it with a low ESR Cap, you change the crossover. You may, or may not like this change, depends. I just recapped my E/V Sentry III's with OEM type caps, did not like it, so I am trying some Low ESR Solens and Paralleld older Poly caps, just for a change of pace. I wish I had me one of them meters !!!

I know this has been mentioned several times before, but you're better off using a high quality cap w/low ESR in series with a resistor, rather than a bad cap with high ESR.

Yes, I was told that. I guess I am a project specific type of guy ? The E/V Sentry III's I am working on did not respond to a matched ESR Cap changeout. They had all mylars and NPE in them stock, I replaced with new Mylars and NP Electrolytics, and the change was not to my liking, so I am waiting on very low ESR Caps, see how that sounds ?