mobile homeless Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Yep. I know what mdeneen is saying. Yet you can test for the voltages on all the parts with a good meter as well. But I agree, it is ultimately the best to have a full bank of test gear. But the lack of should not KEEP newbies from getting vintage gear. I dont have half that stuff and have done without it...although at times I wished I had more. On the line of Mark's suggestions, here are some pics of a Variac, TV-7 Military tube tester, oscilloscope, generator etc. Roger is a great help to people as well. http://home.netcarrier.com/~rstevens/testeqmt.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Mobile That's some nice equipment. His TV7 looks to be in as good a shape as my EICO 667. I would swear someone put mine in a time capsule and locked it up for 40 years. It also seems to work perfect. Personally I think a tube tester is real handy and doesn't really require being totally acurate on the actual numbers. Its still going to test each tube the same and let you compare for balance purposes when getting new tubes. I also think its important to leave the tube in there for 5 to 10 minutes and let it get real warm to get a accurate hot reading. I have no data to back this up it just makes sense to me. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 06:45 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Mobile I hate to be smug but for such a great amp Roger Stevens sure did allot of modding to try to get rid of all the problems he had with Hum and vibration. What's up with that ?? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Craig, for someone that hates to be smug you are getting better at it. I sometimes wonder how carefully you read as the Roger Stevens mods are on the TWEAKS page of my EICO site with comments and an interchange with Roger I had years ago along with a reprint of that whole page. He and the EICO wiring are the subject of the entire page. As my little site only consists of three pages on the EICO and a links page (which HIS is link #1 and #2) I thought you would have already seen this. As said, I have a complete page on the wiring and mods to do with the EICO. All of this stuff is just tweaking. I have a totally bone stock unit that I use all the time as well. Concerning the tube testers, one unfortunate thing about the EICO 667 is that does not test 4-Pin DHT triodes like the 2A3, 300B, 45, 10, 52 etc. The 667 is a nice tester besides that. kh ps- IF you notice the Audio Review page link I sent you many posts up, he is the #1 comment (ie bottom of page). I have a feeling I am going to be suffering with you and the EICO for a long time, however. heh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Mobile You are one touchy dude !!!! You really have to quit taking comments so personal. I haven't really done that much reading in the EICO yet. I have made no final judgments on it. I'm sorry you take these things so personal. I just find after looking at the unit that they designed it at a price point and a very low one at that. When I read of the mods that Roger did it tells me that he did them because he was not satisfied with the performance of the unit just like I wasn't satisfied with my 222C until I added some mods. No big deal. I've also read somewhere not sure where that others have found that it is a noisy design. Tends to have hum and a noisy phono section. Maybe I'm wrong hell I don't know yet. Mines a basket case that I'm currently giving it a bigtime restore. Wait I think it was the reviews you linked to the other day not sure though. I'm sorry that you feel your stuck with me and the 81. I guess that's the price you pay for talking the Amp up so much sooner or later you were going to run into someone that would critic it ! Trust me in the end if its a good Amp I'll be your biggest fan !! I give credit where credit is due and if I have to eat dirt and admit I'm wrong I will do it !! Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 11:30 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 If a curious potential newbie audiophile were to peruse this forum and discovered the faction that raves about the sonics produced by tube gear they would first of all find that several individuals hereabouts have mostly bought new or very reliable used contemporary tube gear, paid a pretty penny, and for the most part are not involved in tweaking, soldering, tube testing, and major mods, as much as setting the stuff up in their homes to enjoy discriminating listening with their Klipsch . They would also find various individuals who in one way or another are trying to beat the system (eg. economize) on the high price of some of this tube gear. That group comprises several variants: those who opt to get recommended inexpensive but surprisingly good contemporary (new) tube amp designs , those who are interested in building new kits, and those who want to venture into the eBay "crap shoot" of obtaining vintage tube gear, which for the most part is a process of rescuing and recycling a kit that someone else built 40+ years ago. One does not need to be a hock-it scientist to learn that the obvious options are Dynaco Stereo 70s (and other Dynaco), almost all of the Eico offerings, some Heathkits, and several of the commercially built quality units from the "golden age" of tube HiFi. The keyword here is "crapshoot". If the person obtaining the vintage gear is willing to take it to someone, it should not be too impractical to bring the unit up to its original standard, although I suspect it will not always be easy to find the appropriate and economical service person these days, depending on where one lives. The other option, when embracing the vintage "crapshoop" is a willingness and/or strong interest in getting into this as a facinating electronics hobby and a life long learning process. There seems no way around this, if you are going to get one or more of these old amplifiers or preamplifiers etc. you need to be willing to get your hands dirty so to speak, and this can be on different levels, although once you start sliding into it, who knows where you will stop. Changing tubes, improving connectors, and fixing solder joints is a start. Then it is capacitors and resistors. Now you start needing schematics and maybe some expert advice. Next thing you know you are interested in obtaining ("professional") test equipment. We saw this progressive pattern with Craig, who it seems would have been at an impasse until someone like mdeneen could tell him how to proceed in order to identify and fix a specific problem. Clearly Craig is interested in this now, however, I don't think he fully knew what he was getting into in the beginning, nor did I. I was also curious and recently also obtained an Eico HF-81 to use up in my art studio when I work away from the main house which has my Cornwalls and soon to be completed Dyna70 Mod which already involves a very interesting learning curve for me under the tutelage of mdeneen and his electronic design skills. Supposedly this HF-81 unit was a "good" one, ready to go, no problems,"sounds great, just plug it in and go go go". {of course, there is always that "as-is" clause that they throw in on top of this rave description}. I was all set to enjoy the velvet sounds, the dream stuff of numerous past articulated ecstacies regarding this legendary unit. It did have a fuse, so, against my better judgement I got hasty and set it up and plugged it in thinking maybe it would be the exception that proved the rule and work as described, and lickity-split I'd be in the club. But unfortunately this was not the scenario. Within 10 seconds, after some kind of humming, I noticed one of the output tubes getting red hot, and some funny smells (that familiar over-heated vintage electronic wax aroma). I immediately turned it off and felt like an idiot for even plugging this in without some expert guidance and a Variac. Hopefully I didn't do any major damage in the process. I am not totally unfamiliar with electronics, however, I have opened up a can of worms here, which is already over my head and over the ability of just a soldering iron and a voltmeter! The Eico HF-81 is an integrated amp, it has way more parts crammed in there than the Dynakit 70 which is the other project I am working on with mdeneen. The HF-81 seems three times more complicated- read "crowded", (preamp, switching circuits, and amp). It has a dozen tubes to potentially upgrade thus multiplying the expense even more. By the time I am done with this it better well live up to the hype or I will be another whistle blower. I am open minded of course, I just want to know if the supposed excellence of the HF-81 is based on its inherent design quallities or the specifics of extreme parts upgrading. First I will have to see how it sounds just fixed, then I can go from there with some upgrading and subtle mods. Just for kicks I will keep a tally of what it costs, and then compare it to what else might be available. Anyone have a schematic they can photo copy for me? This scenario could have happened to any newbie who heard that the HF-81 is cool and now has, whether she likes it or not, a new hobby, or at least, a new quest, eg. right from the start how to fix the damn thing !, finding out how to get this vintage unit to be worth its salt, figuring out how to go about this, finding the people who can help, finding out the source of vintage information and schematics {if it did not come with the original manual}, reading a ton of related websites , finding the source of parts and desirable tubes, and deciding on how much more to spend on this "bargain" before it starts really exceeding the cost of something as good or better that could have been obtained new and would look new. I would say: total newbies beware what lurks in the vintage tube amp bargain besides the idea that one is supposedly beating the "high cost" of new audiophile tube gear. If you do not want to embrace a new hobby for its own sake and for fun and you just want to get better sounds in your house without getting knee deep or even neck deep into the electronics stuff, I would seriously reconsider the vintage tube amp route and check out many of the attractive newly made tube amp "bargains" or perhaps the newly available kits if you are up to it. Personally I would feel better about selling some new gear I bought and didn't ultimately want to keep than to dump some vintage gear I acquired under false advertising and now had to pass along at a loss . I myself would want to disclose what the previous seller did not disclose to me. Many sellers are ignorant of the actual condition of what they are selling, or perhaps are being intentionally deceptive to maximize profits, and take advantage of those of us who are susceptible to the lure of the "vintage tube bargain". It is a crapshoot and it is more like gambling than a sure way to beat the high cost of new gear. I also recently refused a poorly packaged amp from an eBay seller the other day. It was rattling around in the damaged single cardboard box. I had the PO send it back to him unopened with postage due for the return. The seller threw the old Eico in a cardboard box, filled it with plastic peanuts, sent it media rate with no insurance. This, after charging me what I thought was Priority Insured. It is a crapshoot ! Now I have to work out the details of a refund. My only leverage is the feedback system provided by eBay and my trust in human decency. I would advise, never closing a deal outside of the legitimate eBay parameters. If a seller offers you a deal on an item that didn't meet his reserve (say you were the high bidder but not the winner), I would suggest you let the seller relist the item and bid on it again in the eBay context. Some sellers purposely put ridiculously high reserves on an item so it will not reach the reserve, that way they can work out a deal with you and not pay eBay their share. I would suggest you are very vulnerable in that situation because eBay can do nothing if this seller messes with you. It is outside the feedback system and you do not have any advantage. -worried and wordied ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 03-27-2002 at 02:33 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Clipped and Shorn That was well written,thought out very good read. But anyway's I have a good copy of the Sams Photo Facts w/schematic and EICO Schematic. I'll scan you up copies tomorrow. What email would you like it sent too ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 50 pieces of vintage gear on ebay in the last four or five years? Hmmmm.... Quite a dubious number considering your feedback, heh... Mark, did you change your name to protect the guilty?? As is, things have been rather slow since Sept 2001. Personally, I have found ebay to be about the same hit or miss affair since I first joined. The number of amps fluctuates with the times. But the quality of gear seems to be about the same, sometimes better and sometimes worse. Frankly, there actually is an art to getting this gear off ebay and audiogon and it's far more than a crapshoot. And although it is not foolproof by any means, it sure helps (but nothing removes the chance). You need to email with the individual, look at the ad closely, study the pics, email again, ascertain if the seller knows what he is talking about and then make a decision based on trust, PRICE, and condition, as well as your capability. Before that, you need to read every LAST thing you can find about the piece of gear, asking others that know it, get informed opinions etc. I find you can tell a lot about a person and the piece through their responses to inquiries concerning the auction. The quality of their replies and ad are good indicators if mined correctly. Mark is right however in saying that getting a good response from someone that knows his gear is a GREAT indicator. That is why Chris Robinson did so well. His unit was gone over by someone who you could see knew his stuff. Of course, that piece was priced on the high side, even considering. Yet, even at that amount, it is STILL an amazing deal sonic wise. Then again, so are many other vintage amps, including the aforementioned Dynaco, Scott, Fisher, heathkit, and the legendary Leak. A much, much better option to ebay is AudiogoN, where I have not even had a hint of a bad transaction. No, there are not as many vintage peices here but the ones that do crop up, are usually well-taken care of, especially compared to the units on ebay. Most AudiogoN sellers are into the hobby but you STILL have to use the same guidelines to feel out the seller. I buy my more pricey gear here if at all possible. I myself have bought nowhere NEAR the 50 vintage pieces on ebay that Mark reports. That is quite a feat as I said. Yet, I have had very good luck with the units I have bought. kh ps: mdeneen, I just read your post concerning mods. What are some of the examples of amps you have listened to that you would consider "current state of the art?" This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 03-27-2002 at 12:57 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Craig, I tried to print out an HF-81 schematic from one of the websites I found. It is almost too small and fuzzy to read. I need to explore the possibility of formatting my printer to the maximum size, then I have to get some bigger printer paper. How large is the page you have the schematic on? Is the entire schematic on one page? I did find another online source which had the schematic in two parts. It was still a hassel to download and print. My email is as listed in the profile. Thanks. -cropped and dusted ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Unfortunately, this rendition is just for online perusal. But it is very clear and a good resource to download and call up on your computer. IT does not work on the printer front however. http://66.155.4.65/eico_hf-81/schematic/eico_hf81_schematic_full.gif kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Clipped, Take the file for the schematic, download it into a art program,(or move it to it)and then you can size it and format it for printing. It's what I did with the HF-12 schematic. (I had gotten sick of scrowling all over the world looking at a exploded file of the schematic.) THANX! This message has been edited by mike stehr on 03-27-2002 at 01:47 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Clipped and Shorn Check you inbox and I also sent this to Mdeneen. Its the complete Sams Photo facts for the HF-81. Mdeneen also has the EICO schematic at his house take a few floppy's with you. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-27-2002 at 02:07 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Clipped and Shorn, I have sent you an email with a cleaned up printer file of the full HF-81 schematic that Mobile Homeless referenced above. It is sized to fit a standard 8.5" x 11" sheet... put may be printed on a larger sheet if you so desire. Enjoy. -HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 03-27-2002 at 01:57 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 HornEd I would like a copy to if you could ! Thanks in advance Craig nos440@comcast.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Nice work, Horned, if you did pull it off. I have done this as well and even on a laser printer scaled to fit on a 8.5x11 landscape printer format, the result is difficult to read at best. Yes, you can change it in Photoshop but the original was a whopping 3948 x 3078, making for a rather unwieldy conversion. My scanner is currently offline so scanning the original in the manual is not possible at the moment. I will add this to my site when I get time to get it functioning again. Hopefully, Craig's copy came through as well. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Then again, I am waiting for the mdeneen verdict that this amplifier is nothing but a bucket of swill not fit for a dustpan or yard art, whichever comes first. If that is the case, I would get it functioning and sell it for $300 to some needy soul who might believe otherwise. For better or worse, there remain a few out there clueless as to just exactly what they are missing. Ignorance is the better part of bliss, especially when under the influence of the Rozenblit Doctrine. Hope it all works out, regardless. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Mobile First off you have to tell me how the Heck you formated your sigature to such small print ?? I've been racking my brain trying to figure it out. So I can do the same PLEASE !!!!! Take it easy I don't think that's what they have planed for the HF-81 at least I don't think so. Hold onto you hat now cause your going to hate this "smug" comment. I was going to do just that until I looked the unit it over and decided it just wasn't of high enough quality and looks to warrant such a restore job. I'm not trying to attack you its just how I percieve the amp. Please don't take this the wrong way. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-27-2002 at 02:35 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 No offense taken. Listening, system setup, and observation skills noted, however. An army of three can be mighty in the right places. As for the signature, it is simply set to arial at 1 point text. If interested in how to handle this via the rather lame UBB code, take a look at this document. If you can read a schematic, this should be a piece of cake. http://216.37.9.58/ubb/ubbcode.html kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Thanks Mobile Also were not a Army at all. I'm sure that once the Amps are repaired we will find them to be very nice. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Craig and mh, I have sent you both an email attached copy of the cleaned up schematic. It has sufficient information to be printed out at 8.5" x 11" or 11" x 17" if you have that size printer. One thing you should note is that when bringing a black & white schematic into an image processing program, like PhotoShop, be sure that the format is reset to grayscale before you do anything else. Usually your schematic will improve dramatically once the color information is removed. Note that grayscale is also far superior to a bitmapped file. On a bit map file, the computer makes the choice of whether a pixel is black or white depending on how much of each is in the area of the pixel. Grayscale allows for just enough black in critical pixels to create an illusion that has the brain "see" a curve where there are really only a series of black, white and gray square blocks. I would appreciate a post to let me know if it works for you... since I can do some further work on them if necessary. -HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 03-27-2002 at 03:43 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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