Corner-loaded bass horn designs other than Khorn?

[djk]

I am going to make some statements no one will like.

A Klipschorn bottom with a K44E (recommended by Klipsch for this application) has more low end than the EV TL4050, it also has more low end than the MCM1900. The LaScala was used above 100hz.

The club in question had a sunken dance floor (below grade), with concrete corners (ideal for the Klipschorn).

These ended up in a club in Louisiana, and also ended up needing subs for below 60hz. They also recently started eating tweeters, they really don't like the boosted HF some DJs like, and 400W amplifiers.

A computer simulation of the LaScala with the K43E (black) and K33E (grey). This would indicate a 100hz crossover (as I used in the above system) .

A computer simulation of a pair of 15s in a simple-to-build 31hz tapped horn design.

±2dB 31hz~150hz in 2Pi (in the middle of the floor). If you push them up against the wall, or into the corner, expect 5dB~10dB more output (depending on how solid the walls are).

[djk]

As we see above, the Jubilee would be even better than the Klipschorn for the bass, and the MCM starts to fall below 70hz, and has a deep null right where dance music has its peak output (55hz) . Notice the the Klipschorn also has a null at 55hz, but no where near as bad, and the Jubilee does not have a big null here.

Here is another too-small-of-a-mouth-on-a-horn design (from BFM). The dip this time is around 60hz, and the driver that is in here was used in a direct radiator box it would actually have more output (in this region). These kind of horns work better in large blocks, four to eight units.

Another popular DIY bass horn, the LAB 12, vs the previous tapped horn design. The LAB 12 also needs to be used in big multiple blocks, and the tapped horn is better in smaller groups. Once you get up to a block of 6~8 of the LAB 12, it will outperform the tapped horns.

[djk]

What I would pick for a small dance club if I had to use Klipsch (KTP Jubilee):

What I use:

The mids are similar to the KTP system. My bass cabinets are 107dB/2.83V/1M for the stacked pair (in 2Pi), and are -3dB at 31hz.

[DrWho]

As we see above, the Jubilee would be even better than the Klipschorn for the bass, and the MCM starts to fall below 70hz, and has a deep null right where dance music has its peak output (55hz) . Notice the the Klipschorn also has a null at 55hz, but no where near as bad, and the Jubilee does not have a big null here.

Come on Dennis, you should know better.....the chamber those came from is only anechoic down to 200Hz and the mic location wasn't consistent. The 50Hz and 30Hz dips are room modes, but that should have been obvious since the horns in question aren't large enough to even be able to create such a large Q abberation anyway, and the cabinets are certainly stiff enough. The MWM is way more efficient than the Jub and Khorn LF's down to a solid 40Hz. Technically it's doing more to 35Hz, but you'd need to EQ to make it flat.

The problem I have with folded horns at home is the type of artifacts you get at the higher frequencies, which is especially noticeable with electronic music. If you were to go unfolded, then I'd be all over horns in a heartbeat, but even then, it's hard to ignore the extra flexibility when dealing with room modes that having multiple smaller cabs yields....and an array of direct radiators will easily match the efficiency of a horn.

[PrestonTom]

A couple of question for DJK (and these might answer some of Dr Who's comments also).

What are the approximate crossover points on your system?

For dance music, you folks don't generally try to go much below 40-45 Hz do you. Or am I off by an octave?

[Lime Twig]

William, THANK YOU for directing me to the MCM. I discovered colterphoto thread on rebuilding his MWMs and they look excellent, all the more because they look like a reasonable thing to build.

Can someone fill me in on some details? MCM is the name of the overall line and MWM, MWM-s are part of this line? What are the major differences, configurations within the line? (I read that MWM-s was the single driver version).

Most importantly, would they mate well with La Scalas?

[Lime Twig]

EDIT:after searching some more threads I've got my head around the MCM's parts: MWM, MSSM, MSM, etc.

I'd still love to know how well they would mate with La Scalas though! And how efficient they are... they look huge but the horn path looks very simple.

[psg]

Direct radiator woofers or subwoofers seem to have the upper hand with drum beats, the distortion from the cone(s) can be very convincing & loud.

Horn loading subs & woofers does something magical with strings and i just cant get enough.

If you really need slam and ugly & big are no concern check this out:

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T60.html

Sweet. I was thinking of eventually building a Tuba 24, but I could use this in its slim version as a stage benerath the second row of seats!

[djk]

You are still thinking of building a Tuba 24?

What about this do you like?

[djk]

"A couple of question for DJK (and these might answer some of Dr Who's
comments also).

What are the approximate crossover points on your
system?"

150hz and 1.5Khz, LR24 (TDM 24CX3) Crest V450 (HF), V1500 (MF), V1500 (LF).

"For dance music, you folks don't generally try to go much
below 40-45 Hz do you. Or am I off by an octave?"

No, you're correct. You need the ability to pump out lots of 40hz, not much commercial program material below there. I think I only heard one song the whole night that dropped to 30hz. Studies by EAW (and others) find the peak outputin dance music is around 55hz or so.

My original PPSL design spec was to be able to do low 'B' on a 5-string bass (31hz). I really didn't see the need to go much deeper (for live music), especially considering size and efficency requirements. These were to replace some big-ol-horns that were just too big, and too heavy. I've used the MCM 1900 in both live music, and dance clubs. They get a qualified OK for live music (no real deep bass), and a definite NO for dance club music.

[djk]

http://www.google.com/patents?id=-2s2AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

Fig.6 shows the measured response.

Klipsch stated that the peak to trough ratio in the range of 40hz~500hz was no more than 10dB.This looks correct, with 40hz being 10dB down from 250hz.

The too-small-of-a-mouth, mouth reflection dip looks to be around 4dB (down from the average level from 80hz~180hz) or so, at about 60hz or so. Response comes back about 1dB at 55hz or so, then dives, being about 6dB down at 40hz, and a rapid roll-off below the peak in the 55hz range, being about 18dB down at 30hz.

For the curious, there is enough data in the patent to do a Hornresp simulation.

[psg]

You are still thinking of building a Tuba 24?

What about this do you like?

Yes, I was. I hadn't actually seen a frequency response curve. I liked the relative ease of build and have a spot for a La Scala sized sub. Do any of the Tuba builds measure well if you consider only up to 80 Hz (or less)?

I like the idea of one you can use as a step for the second row of seats. I would have purchased the Danley kit if it were still availlable.

[psg]

This is the (advertised) curve of the Tuba HT, which is actually the one I was thinking about:

Not too bad from 25 to 80 Hz.

[superedge88]

This is the (advertised) curve of the Tuba HT, which is actually the one I was thinking about:

Not too bad from 25 to 80 Hz.

There is a low profile version of the Tuba HT now, might be perfect for you! I have the regular Tuba HT, and absolutely love it. Typically with room gain people are reporting getting down to about 16hertz.

[John Warren]

Couple of pics of the LEE Catenoid.

The woofer was a 12" University, the mid an 8" University and the tweeter a horn also University.

[John Warren]

AFT shot

[John Warren]

Here's a pic of the EV Patrician, manufactured under agreement with PWK. The woofer is 18W-K.

[John Warren]

,

[John Warren]

The 4-D brochure

[John Warren]

A less then perfect Patrician