hwatkins Posted April 20, 2002 Share Posted April 20, 2002 I really don't have the tech knowledge here, and having listened to far too many high end speakers over the years to change my opinion about good horns (heritage stuff makes me smile most), I would like to learn. The comment was that Klipsch does not have anything near 'flat response' like Revel, Martin Login and other dropped names. Is anyone here willing to help me learn what was meant by the comment? ------------------ Hwatkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted April 20, 2002 Share Posted April 20, 2002 If it looks good and sounds good and sounds good over the long run - It is probably good. I have long ago given up on worrying about the specs of audio equipment as I have learned that the numbers are at best only a guide. If you have a system/amplifier/speaker/etc. that you enjoy then it is a good system for you at least. ------------------ It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted April 20, 2002 Share Posted April 20, 2002 Lynnm's points are correct - in the end it's all about what sounds good to you. Flat response means that the output (db's) of the speaker remains constant over the frequency range which the speaker is designed for. I believe that is every speaker maker's Holy Grail - to achieve perfectly flat response. Like the Grail, though, it is unlikely to ever be found. So they typically refer to flat response, I believe, as varying not more than 3db +- across the frequency range. The Klipsch Heritage are not known (I don't believe) for having terribly flat response curves, but they sound terrific nonetheless. By the time you factor in room acoustics, you hardly get flat response from any speaker (Revel, ML, or otherwise), unless you are in an anechoic chamber. Klipsch did (does?) produce speakers with pretty flat response curves - Chorus, Cornwall, Forte, etc..., so it really depends what model they are referring to. See these response curves: http://216.37.9.58/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001152.html Doug ------------------ My System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted April 21, 2002 Author Share Posted April 21, 2002 Thanks for the start - It points me in a direction to look to learn some more. I am considering starting an argument there and want to be armed for the 'show me the facts not opinions' lads - you know the type. They prefer to rip every opinion to show their technical prowess - I call it engineering testosterone poisoning. They are egotistical, snobbish slugs that suffer from an overprotective childhood (that was just a practice jab ) Now, knowing that us right thinking Klipschers are not opinionated or egotistical (and I also have a bridge for sale) I am preparing for the conversation direction - direct radiating speakers ( as horns have to be) are ALWAYS (those folks do love to shout) a bad choice (unless you plan on broadcasting from low space orbit to the northern hemisphere). My thoughts here are that direct radiation is the absolute (must always use strong, definitive postitioning words like absolute, infallable, etc.) best solution since you can then really execute tuning parameters with speaker placement. Seems to me you get best 360 degree fill with appropriately placed direct radiating speakers (other than that dreaded directionless bass). The fact that it may take hundreds of speakers would never show up in my argument. Why would I want 360 degree fill if to do so is a variation of Dr. Bose's thinking - ambiance is far more beneficial than accurate interpretation of intent? I have the horns set and tuned (without an equalizer - yet) and they provide a much more pleasing fill than any previous non-horn attempt. I will stay with my non technical pleasure. The serious side is that this type of discussion should help me learn enough to continue to refine my stuff. Everytime I get some refinement in knowledge I tend to improve the setup. ------------------ Hwatkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by hwatkins: They are egotistical, snobbish slugs that suffer from an overprotective childhood (that was just a practice jab... Please keep in mind the adage about arguing with a fool... ------------------ "KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted April 21, 2002 Author Share Posted April 21, 2002 I will remember - I hope all take my previous ramble in the lighthearted spirit intended. I will probably start a thread, but more with the intent of getting new knowledge. It will hopefully done in a spirited, yet diplomatic way. ------------------ Hwatkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 HW, Flat frequency response is important in speaker sound quality, but not near as important for realistic reproduction of music as good dynamic range, lack of dynamic compression, and low intermodulation (IM) distortion. IMHO, these are three biggest distortions a speaker design can have, and they CANNOT be corrected, like frquency response can. When compared to conventional cone and dome speakers, horn loaded speakers tend to excel in these three areas. Also, there are no good numbers to reflect these types of distortion (the dynamic range type distortions, not IM), so it makes them hard to quantify, but you sure can hear it! Dynamic range: difference between loud and soft passages. Very pronouced in live music and VERY important for speakers to sound like music. Typically, horns have much, much better dynamic range than speakers using conventional drivers. Read: blows them away. If you hear loud music coming out of a garage, how hard is it to tell whether it is a live band, or just some guy cranking his stereo? Not too difficult. The dynamics of a live performance are easily discerned. Dynamic compression: as power is increased to the speaker, the difference between the loud and soft passages becomes less pronouced to make all the instruments sound like they are "at one volume." Conventional drivers tend to suffer from this phenomenon at high orders of magnitude when compared to horn loaded speakers. This type of distortion is what tends to make conventional speakers not sound musical when they are turned up. With K-horns, the lack of dynamic compression makes for explosive, hair trigger dynamics when they are turned up. This effect is very obvious and makes Khorn speakers sound breathtakingly musical - much like a live performance. Intermodulation Distortion: the residual, overhanging sound caused by a driver continuing to move, or rebound, after a signal has stopped. Turn up an old tube AM radio loaded with a single 12" or 15" speaker and you will hear IM distortion so high the vocals will sound "warbly". Given the much higher excursions of conventional drivers (when compared to horns), they will suffer much more from this phenomemon. The lack of this type of distortion in horns is one of the reasons they have such a clean, crisp sound. One listen to the tightness of horn loaded bass and your hooked! Bass with high IM distortion tends to sound flabby, or even boomy. Also, with horn speakers, the resolution is so high, it is EASY to hear the vocalist's lungs filling with air, fingers rubbing on fret boards, and accurate reproduction of hammers hitting piano strings. The cone and dome fans call this property "unforgiving". We call it crisp, clean, clear, accurate, resolution and low distortion. Cone and Dome speakers usually have flatter frequency response when compared to horns, but they tend to suffer from lack of dynamic range, dynamic compression, and IM distortion - which is why speakers sound like speakers and Klipsch sounds like music. Everyone has a preference - I'll take the music. Regards, Andy This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 04-21-2002 at 01:04 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 Great post Klipschguy! ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 Thanks Soundog. Just some observations through my horn colored glasses. We didn't all wander through the quagmire of speakers to end up with horns for no reason! Warmest regards, Andy This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 04-21-2002 at 01:15 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 How to deal with the "horn nay-sayers": 1. Sit them down in the sweet spot in front of some good ole heritage models. 2. Turn on the system. 3. Take out a CD (or vinyl if that is your preference) of "Kenny Loggins with Jim Messina Sittin' In"(their first album) 4. Play the song "House at Pooh Corner" 5. While it is playing gradually increase the volume upwards, but not too uncomfortably for them...then gradually decrease the volume until it can barely be heard...then gradually go back to normal listening level. Watch their facial expressions for signs of enlightenment. 5. After they have listened to it, act like a citizen from Missouri (ie., tell them "SHOW ME!!!") This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 04-21-2002 at 02:33 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted April 21, 2002 Author Share Posted April 21, 2002 Excellent description of what I hear. In helping prove to my brother why he should get Klipshhorns some time ago, we auditioned quite a few high end speakers (my next home will have room for the big boys - several heresy have to do for now). It came down to Revel (he loved the specs) and Klipsch. I had a recording of various pieces by the St. Louis Symphony (we are blessed with a decent symphony here) that included some passages that were very well recorded and sounded very much like what I had heard live. I have always enjoyed live orchestra - where a single ting on the triangle is as crisp as a trumpet and an active part of the music. When we used this recording on each set of speakers we both could not put our finger specifically on why, but the Revel setup seemed soft - Oh, the triangle (for instance) was there alright, and clear. But it did not have the same sense or purpose that it did live. While my brother had not heard the live performance, he clearly liked the Klipshhorns because of this. Granted, he had to have the right space for the horns, but at retail the Klipschs were about 70 -75% the costs of the Revel. Seems like a great deal to me. Nothing here is to pan other speakers, but to note my preference and try to quantify. Thanks ------------------ Hwatkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 As a historian, it is funny to keep seeing a different version of the same thing over the years: 1950: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever was the high dollar "best in the world" speaker that year) 1960: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever was the high dollar "best in the world" speaker that year) 1970: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever was the high dollar "best in the world" speaker that year) 1980: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever was the high dollar "best in the world" speaker that year) 1990: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever was the high dollar "best in the world" speaker that year) Today: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever is the high dollar "best in the world" speaker this year) Isn't it strange that one side of this equation remains constant for over half a century, while the other doesn't? "The purpose of history is to learn about the mistakes in the past so as not to repeat them" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 What different versions? From 1950 to 1990 comparing the KHorn to "the best speaker in the world" that speaker would have been the Altec VOT the whole time. :-) Alas, Altec IS gone now. And I think that the Edgar Titan will kill any Klipsch Heritage speaker now. Maybe not the Jubilee though, once we get to hear it. One thing for sure though, the only thing that can compete with the KHorn is another horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 TBrennon, As for our opinions, we all have them and that is what makes each of us unique. As for my last posting I was referring "toungue in cheek" to the various offerings-up by the "horn nay-sayers" over the years and how they consistently used the K-horn as a reference for comparison to justify their beliefs that a horn had been defeated by the "new kid on the block" non-horn-loaded speaker... but this new kid on the block never seemed to be around long, constantly changing, whereas the comparison point the "horn nay-sayers used over the last half century is still around. Whether or not we believe that the K-horn is the best of the horn-loaded speakers around is our own opinions, but we DO agree that the horn is a superior reproducer of sound... which was my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 Builder---Yeah, I got your point, I was just jaggin' around a little. So many have come and gone--serious ARs, serious KLHs and Advents, Bozak, Dayton-Wright, Dahlquist, Acoustat, IMF, Genesis, the good Infinitys; scads of them and all at one time or another considered superior by many to the KHorn. The only guys I can think of around since the 50s and still building serious home speakers are Klipsch, JBL, Tannoy and Quad. Hmmm, 3 makers of horns and 1 of ESs, not a conventional cone-domer in the bunch. Tells ya something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 Tom- While I agree that Bruce Edgar's Titan set-up bests the Khorns, I wouldn't say they "kill" them. The Titan system is a little better all around - a little lower bass, a little more soaring highs and a less constrained, more open mid-range. I would trade them for my Khorns but I wouldn't run out to replace my Khorns, unless I won the lottery and built an appropriate room for the Titans. In short, they are better, which is remarkable, but not overwhelmingly so. However, I bet they have an even lower WAF then the Khorns. But, of course, this just reinforces your point that the only thing that beats a horn-loaded system is another horn loaded system. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems This message has been edited by soundog on 04-22-2002 at 07:25 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 hwatkins, Are you in war now? if you point me to the forum I will go and read, perhaps contribute to illustrate some poor guys there ;-) hmm... of course, we can go as a group (calling all regulars!), just to see how bad they really are! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 SoundDog---Yes, you're right, "kills" was putting it too strongly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 Just one point to make here...before we get all caught-up in which horn (that will fit in a home listening environment) is best....I WANNA HEAR THE JUBILEE!!!! From VERY good authority, who was VERY close to the action in the development of the Jubilee, it may be that PWK has opened a new can of "whoop-azz" with it...let's hope that this will NOT be his last contribution to loudspeaker design, but if it ends up so, I sincerely hope it drives the audiophile world crazy into the NEXT millenium and beyond in their attempts to equal or surpass it...PWK deserves at least that much!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 Klipschguy Great Stuff!! As I pointed out earlier - Specs are useful as a guide. You took it a quantum step further by describing some specifications that are rarely if ever offered which impact in a major way upon the sound we all seek. While some of what you describe can be easily quantified given the right equipment and perception - the fact is that is much of what you address is very subjective. I have rarely,(I would love to say never but y'all would smell a hint of Bovine excrement),bought into The "Subjective is merely opinion while Objective is measurable and THEREFORE gospel argument" simply because there are too many "absolute truths" have been shown to be wrong in the light of later understanding. In defence of the "Meters Uber Alles" contingent: Too often what we wish to believe tends to cause us to utterly disregard and in fact demonise what can be demonstrated in favour of what we wish to believe and there are sooooo many examples available in history and science to support that complaint. (I could give umpteen examples but this is not a politics/philosophy/religious forum) On the other hand one may point to almost as many examples of what had been "scientifically certain and/or proven" which have since been shown to be untrue. The fact that one perceives sonic benefits,(or deficits),that are not supported by measurements or established theory,does not necessarily mean that one is a fanatic or deluded - It may simply signify that the effect that is perceived has yet to be demonstrated in a meaningful way. The fun part is that the perceived effect/benefit may be pure hooey - and that's OK with me too! This message has been edited by lynnm on 04-22-2002 at 09:40 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.