YA Mid Horn Question

[krell]

I have a pair of 2005 vintage khorns with the AK-4 Xovers with K-55X and K-77F drivers. Completely stock units. I am considering replacing the the K-401 horn with one of the popular tractrix configurations such as those offered from Dave, Al, and Volti etc. My questions is: Considering that I wish to only switch the horn and keep the remaining components stock (no new drivers/crossovers) what would be the best choice? I know that all of these designs have been discussed here many times but most of the discussions involve new 2" drivers and crossovers. My biggest curiosity lies at the throat adapter interface. Does a design such as the eliptrac make for a smoother and more effective interface?

Thanks

[Guest " "]

Krell

each of the folks you name would probably have good pro's and con's for your questions. shoot them an email. ask lots of questions. Al has some info on 1" vs 2" pro's and con's. Dave's horns are growing in popularity.

[PrestonTom]

The problem with updating these components is that most of the offerings you have mentioned are made by someone in his garage.

The craftsmanship may be good and the cosmetics may be fantastic. However, we typically know very little about the design, its goals, decisions etc. The problem becomes even trickier since little or no technical measurements are provided. Those that are provided are either very coarse, poorly done, or simply inadequate. The result is that the performance data is reduced to testimonials about how great they sound. In some cases, the testimonials are clearly cases of trumped up fiction.

In answer to your question, yes the crossover (balancing network) would most likely need to be changed, especially if you are changing to a 2 inch throated horn/driver.

Just as a note. If you do go with the aftermarket upgrades, you will probably lose in terms of aftermarket value. If they are simply re-freshing componets or doing slight mods, you can get your money back in the end. For the more elaborate modifications, you will not see much return on your investment, IMO.

Good luck,

-Tom

[Marvel]

In answer to your question, yes the crossover (balancing network) would most likely need to be changed, especially if you are changing to a 2 inch throated horn/driver.

He ONLY wants to change the midrange horn, i.e., the K401. All other components would stay the same. Crossover would not need changes, unless you find a tonal shift and feel the need to change tap settings on the crossover to provide a better balance between the drivers.

The horns meant to be used with the 1" drivers would be the easiest to make.

Bruce

[PrestonTom]

Bruce: you are correct.

However, even with a simple swap like replacing a K-401 with an Altec 511 horn, many folks would also modify the crossover with this combination. These things never stay simple and a new horn may have a different efficiency.

[Johnny's Jill]

The problem with updating these components is that most of the offerings you have mentioned are made by someone in his garage.

The craftsmanship may be good and the cosmetics may be fantastic. However, we typically know very little about the design, its goals, decisions etc. The problem becomes even trickier since little or no technical measurements are provided. Those that are provided are either very coarse, poorly done, or simply inadequate. The result is that the performance data is reduced to testimonials about how great they sound. In some cases, the testimonials are clearly cases of trumped up fiction.

In answer to your question, yes the crossover (balancing network) would most likely need to be changed, especially if you are changing to a 2 inch throated horn/driver.

Just as a note. If you do go with the aftermarket upgrades, you will probably lose in terms of aftermarket value. If they are simply re-freshing componets or doing slight mods, you can get your money back in the end. For the more elaborate modifications, you will not see much return on your investment, IMO.

Good luck,

-Tom

This blanket statement is not accurate, Dave and ALK did extensive testing and posted results on their horns. Volti doesn't post graphs or specs, but Gregs products have an overall excellent following.

Furthermore, Daves horn are all computer cut (CNC). this tends to insure consistent results. http://mysite.verizon.net/res12il11/id101.html

As for return on your investment, this is true. But what percentage of people get 100% return on any Klipsch product?

Craig 73

[PrestonTom]

from: Johnny 5 / Craig 73

".....

This blanket statement is not accurate, Dave and ALK did extensive testing and posted results on their horns. Volti doesn't post graphs or specs, but Gregs products have an overall excellent following.

Furthermore, Daves horn are all computer cut (CNC). this tends to insure consistent results. http://mysite.verizon.net/res12il11/id101.html

As for return on your investment, this is true. But what percentage of people get 100% return on any Klipsch product?

Craig 73"

-------

Yes, some folks have done some sort of measurement and posted the results. I never said otherwise.

Yes, Greg's products do "have a following". I never said otherwise.

Yes, some folks have done a great job in terms of craftsmanship, wood working and finishing. I never said otherwise.

Enough said. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

[Johnny's Jill]

Enough said. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

Done.

Craig

[Guest David H]

The problem with updating these components is that most of the offerings you have mentioned are made by someone in his garage.

This is true, I do work out of my garage. Then again horns are my hobby, not my livelyhood. Furthermore I was not aware that the environment where the products were built affected the build or sound quality.

The craftsmanship may be good and the cosmetics may be fantastic.

Thanks, assuming it's my work you are referring to. To presumtuous?

However, we typically know very little about the design, its goals, decisions etc.

Goal: Make a great sounding horn for home entertainment.

Design: Pure Tractrix, rectangular, round, or eliptical cross section.

Decision: Materials chosen for low resonance.

ETC: Paint them black with a fine textured finish to help break up standing waves.

The problem becomes even trickier since little or no technical measurements are provided. Those that are provided are either very coarse, poorly done, or simply inadequate.

My apologies, the test equipment used is the best I have available to me.

The result is that the performance data is reduced to testimonials about how great they sound. In some cases, the testimonials are clearly cases of trumped up fiction.

This doesn't apply to my work, I dont believe I have ever posted a trumped up fictional testimonial, or any testimonial for that matter.

In answer to your question, yes the crossover (balancing network) would most likely need to be changed, especially if you are changing to a 2 inch throated horn/driver.

This depends entirely on the mods being made, spl differences can be an issue.

Just as a note. If you do go with the aftermarket upgrades, you will probably lose in terms of aftermarket value.

I believe this is true with most products in general. Used parts sell for less than new ones.

Little to no argument here, Dave Harris

[PrestonTom]

Dave, I do DIY out of my garage also. It works!

Why did you assume that my comments were specifically directed at you? There are many folks selling there wares on this forum.

[Guest " "]

I love it.....I purposely tried to avoid a few issues....but I guess these things are unavoidable...I tend to be in agreement with everyone today....so kudos to the pro's and con's . Today I am also working out of my garage...I'm working out with my gym equipment....I am doing 4 pairs of crossovers that are going out this week as part of my free crossover exchange....and I'm working out the mighty 5 watt amp while drinking as few jack Daniel's as I reflect on the blast I had yesterday at the bike rally/car show. Met some cool folks, and missed a few folks who will never be among us again. Enjoy your weekend, do something different.

[Guest David H]

Why did you assume that my comments were specifically directed at you?

I did not assume this applied to myself soley, however the initial question refers to replacing mid horns, and my horns were one of the examples used.

I was hoping atleast the comments about the nice appearance applied.

Dave

[PrestonTom]

Why did you assume that my comments were specifically directed at you?

I did not assume this applied to myself soley, however the initial question refers to replacing mid horns, and my horns were one of the examples used.

I was hoping atleast the comments about the nice appearance applied.

Dave

Dave, of course it applies.

I am not sure what your future directions are, but you seem to be able to get this stuff up and running pretty quickly.

What is your level of interest in making some constant dispersion (CD) horns? Using these as Klipsch upgrades could be a great application (although most folks get confused by the advantages of a CD horn).

There are a couple of possibilities that you might want to adapt: the quadratic throat design and the oblate spheroid contour. Although I am not sure what the market might be like for these. Just a thought.

[krell]

Perhaps I should clarify a bit. I really dont want to meddle with the crossover/drive synergy. I just want to smooth them out a bit and gain some soundstage. Perhaps this may be the wrong approach I'm not sure.

[PrestonTom]

Perhaps I should clarify a bit. I really dont want to meddle with the crossover/drive synergy. I just want to smooth them out a bit and gain some soundstage. Perhaps this may be the wrong approach I'm not sure.

It is not clear what you mean by "smooth them out", however the issue of soundstage is most easily addressed by speaker placement and whether the room reflections are problematic.

For instance, how far apart are the speakers and how far away is the listening chair? What is along the wall between the speakers?

[oscarsear]

Perhaps I should clarify a bit. I really dont want to meddle with the crossover/drive synergy. I just want to smooth them out a bit and gain some soundstage. Perhaps this may be the wrong approach I'm not sure.

Mebbe I can help. I too owned a pair of Khorns using the AK-4 crossover. Do you know that Klipsch evolves its Khorn designs including their crossovers? Prior to the newer Khorns I'd owned a pair of 80's Khorns. Honestly I found the newer crossover, the AK-4, to be much brighter and harsher than the older units. I do not know which crossover they employed. So, like you, I went on a fix-em up campaign. I spoke with a great many people from these and other forums. I ended up replacing the crossover, the mid horn and its driver and the tweeter. I am quite pleased with the final configuration. It may be that you do not need to do all that I did do to achieve what you're aiming for. I would 1st change the crossover. Personally I think the AK-4 caters to a particular set of ears. People seem to really like it or really hate it. I went with AlK's steep slope crossover. Crites makes another crossover choice. But the crossover change alone may correct your problem and you can resell the AK-4's. In my case, I ended up with AlK's steep slope crossover, Dave Harris's elliptical tractrix midrange horn using the 2 inch JBL 2482 driver and the JBL 2404 tweeter. The combination is really quite something and yessir, you can pick the instruments out from an orchestral recording.

[Guest David H]

What is your level of interest in making some constant dispersion (CD) horns? Using these as Klipsch upgrades could be a great application (although most folks get confused by the advantages of a CD horn).

I am interested in working with this type of horn, In fact ALK is currently woring on a Conical design program.

There are a couple of possibilities that you might want to adapt: the quadratic throat design and the oblate spheroid contour. Although I am not sure what the market might be like for these. Just a thought.

I have done alot of reading about Gedde's work on the oblate spheroid contour, and some testing of basic waveguides. My initial impressions were not great, but with a better understanding of what is trying to be accomplished with this design, I may have a change of heart.

That said, I have alot to learn about CD's

Dave

[mikebse2a3]

ETC: Paint them black with a fine textured finish to help break up standing waves.

One thing that has been reconfirmed for me this weekend on this forum is what we write in our post can often be read and taken in so many different ways than what our thinking and intentions are when writting them. The written word alone isn't a sufficient method of communication in many instances and I'm certain this is a cause for a lot of the misunderstandings that happen on this and all forums.

Dave I want to start by saying please don't take this the wrong way because otherwise I'm afraid my questioning this will be seen by some (as has happened in the past) as an attack on you personelly.

I really want to understand your reasoning and so can you please explain how this is helping standing waves that might develop in a horn?

What area of the frequency spectrum does this help?

mike tn

[mikebse2a3]

Perhaps I should clarify a bit. I really dont want to meddle with the crossover/drive synergy. I just want to smooth them out a bit and gain some soundstage. Perhaps this may be the wrong approach I'm not sure.

I've lost track of how many times I've seen the loudspeaker(This includes many brands and not just Klipsch) blamed for what is more often due to the acoustic nature of the room/loudspeaker interface not being optimized.

If you are not getting good imaging with the Khorns(and they are installed properly ie: polarity, etc....) then this is the first clue that the rooms acoustics are giving you difficulty and generally I have found some of what causes this also show up in the form of edgyness that if you can improve the acoustics of the room both problems will improve.

Buying absorbent panels isn't the best solution with Khorns often because between room mode issues and lack of diffusion in a room are most often the more serious issues that should be dealt with for maximum performance.

miketn

[Guest David H]

I really want to understand your reasoning and so can you please explain how this is helping standing waves that might develop in a horn?

What area of the frequency spectrum does this help?

Good question Mike, and the terminology may well be incorrect, reflections or reflected waves may be a better description. As I understant it, anything that breaks up a flat surface helps to reduce standing waves.

Because I have never seen a standing wave, I can only compare it to a reflection and or an echo. The fine textured surface act like an acoustic ceiling treatment, and although the effect may be negligable in a Tractrix horn, it certainly doesn't hurt.

Dr. Earl Geddes has done extensive work with horn reflections, early reflections, standing, reflected and a diffracted waves, as well as high order modes, and would be the best reference I could think to refer to for more information.

Mike, also please keep in mind I am a hobbiest, not an engineer, and "what I don't know is alot."

Dave Harris

Standing Waves

Standing waves are created when you have two parallel facing walls. There will be a particular set of frequencies that are reinforced by the distance between the walls (the sound makes exactly one round trip on each cycle of the speaker and the pressure fronts pile up). This is what happens in bathrooms- you probably know one where the deep tones of your voice are tremendously supported (doesn't everybody sing in the shower?). Most rooms have three pairs of parallel surfaces, and the dimensions are usually just right to affect music. An eight foot ceiling, for instance, reinforces 70 hz. ( This is called a room mode.)

This phenomenon can be prevented by designing the room with nonparallel walls. It can be cured in existing rooms by making one of the walls absorptive or by breaking up the flat surfaces. When sound is reflected off a rounded or complex surface, it is diffused. Diffusion spreads the reverberant sound evenly throughout a room, which not only prevents standing waves but also eliminates "dead spots"-- places where components of the sound are missing.

We can break up flat surfaces by hanging large objects called diffusers. The shapes chosen for diffusers are really a matter of taste and cost. Avoid concave curves, which focus sound instead of dispersing it, but otherwise pyramids, lattices, or computer designed random surfaces all work well. The depth of a diffuser determines the lowest frequency that will be affected. A diffuser one foot deep will scatter sound down to 160 hz.

Reflections can cause a further problem when the principal activity in a room is listening to loudspeakers.