Negative Volume on Denon 3802

[cluless]

O.K. Color me stupid but what's the deal with the negative volume settings on the denon 3802 receiver?

When I listen to CDs I need to set the settings in negative 20s, but for TV/DVD I need to set the volume to -5 to + 5. Does this imply that the Denon is sucking the sound waves from the room?

Not to say that the receiver sucks of course.

[fini]

As I understand it, the amplifier in a receiver (or any amp) puts out full power. Then, the volume control attenuates (is that the right term, professors?), or lessens that output. So, that's why they're negative numbers. "0" on the dial is full power.

Some say the TV sucks brain waves from your head, I don't know.

fini

This message has been edited by fini on 04-25-2002 at 07:59 AM

[dougdrake]

And since the Denon also goes into + numbers on the volume, I assume that is because the pre-amp signal is being boosted above 0??

cluless - I'm at 85db reference level at -13 on my Denon 3300. I can't imagine how loud it must be for you at -5 to +5!! I got mine up to +5 one day and my heart was pounding so hard I had to stop!

Doug

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My System

[edwardre]

Yeah, ditto what Doug said. What speakers are you running or how large is that concert hall that requires a setting of -5 to +5??? Jeepers! I've a 3802 as well. -18 sends the wife yelping out of the house with hands on head. -13 and the KIDS are lighting out like shot from gun. I've tested myself to the +5 or so level like Doug but could only take a few seconds. And my hearing is screwed up from tooo many concert and ear blistering sonic attacks. Hmmmm.....maybe thats why I can't hear the infamous 3802 hiss....

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Ed

[boa12]

yea it makes a dif which speakers are used. i had to make my reference level 88db. the makers set their reference levels usually at 75db but obviously use more inefficient speaks than klipsch for that point.

but then again if i turn a dvd to 0 i'm up at 110db or so, so other factors come into play beyond what the maker uses for their reference levels using test tones.

iow, it's just reference points that the maker produces

but has no direct relation to what we get especially with klipsch.

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My Home Systems Page

[zandern]

Clueless,

I have a denon 2802 and it does the same thing. Here is what you do. When your playing DVD's you might use DD, PLII or what ever you choose. When listening to a TV, CD, or whatever you might used a different sound mode like stereo, 5 channel stereo, or maybe even those mentioned earlier. But if you turn your receiver to max volume and don't play anything you can swith your sound modes and you will notice that different sound modes go higher. For example on my 2802 stereo mode goes to +13, PLII +10, mono movie +18, see what I mean. This may be why you have to turn it up louder, depending on the listening mode you have selected, assuming that for DVD's, TVand CD's you use different listening modes. Just a suggestion! By the way +5 like the others said I think would cause my ears to bleed and I even like my sh@t loud.

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I like my bass like I like my women, deep and tight.

[cluless]

I was just wondering about the negative numbers. My last receiver was circa 1985 and it didn't even display a volume number much less a negative one. How can I crank the volume up to "11" (remember spinal tap)

if I cant even get out of the negative numbers?

I think y'all answered my question thoughk, thanks

[boa12]

c, if you can't get to +11 then most likely you already have a speaker(s) level in the set-up cranked up. if you set all the speaker levels there to 0db maybe you can spinal tap it to +11.

those levels are just what they use +/- from THEIR reference level of 0. that's just up to them where they set it. & just a reference level for us to use w/ out stuff - i.e., if we go to -10 we know it's louder than -40. but yea different input devices/modes will have different output levels. f.e., my dvd player

in 6 channel stereo mode will output much higher than the digital cable tv in DD 5.1.

also, 2 different cd can be recorded at dif output levels, f.e.

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My Home Systems Page

[JohnA]

The zero setting would be full output at some reference input level. If your input level is below reference, what ever that might be, you could need to boost the signal with more pre-amp gain to get the loudness you need.

John

This message has been edited by John Albright on 05-01-2002 at 10:20 AM

[IndyKlipschFan]

Denon 3802 is now set up properly too.

THANK YOU Klipsch B/board and Steve!!!!

OMG I am in Audio Heaven

This message has been edited by IndyKlipschFan on 05-21-2002 at 12:09 PM

[cluless]

I found that one of my reasons for having to set the volume higher on the receiver was that I had turned down the volume of the TV to next to nothing one night after one too many barley pops.

Other than that, having fronts and rears set to zero, and sub set at +2, (center has to be changed depending on media- sometimes it's just too strident), I just live in the negative volume land. Oh the beautiful sound of sound waves being sucked from the room.

[Mlstrass]

I've ventured into the +10 level on mine a few times. What did you say......I can't hear you!!! The neighbors heard it 2 houses away, and that's with ALL the windows closed. I normally watch DVD's at -8, with all the speakers @ 0 & the sub @ -10.

When watching AC/DC "Stiff Upper Lip" DVD watched at -4 for the whole concert. Ears rang for about 3 hours after that, felt like I was there....

[boa12]

ml, yea same here on the ac/dc stiff upper.

nice thing about the home sys we have control though. don't have to stick filters in our ears.

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My Home Systems Page

[cluless]

I am now beginning to believe that my volume control issue (no one has "problems" these days) is directly proportional to the amount of time I spend listening...AND

[bacevedo]

Let's see if I can shed some light on this.

With current digital receivers, the volume display, is a reference to a common point. What do I mean by this?

On the Denon 3802, the volume is displayed as DB's below a maximum output at 0 db attenuation. This is also used to match how a Dolby Digital DVD is mastered.

When a DVD is mastered, its full potential volume is 105 db for the main channels. This is what people call reference level.

So, what we try and do in our theater is create a system that is capable of reference level. In order to do this, we have to calibrate the system, because the room, speakers, amps, etc. can effect this level.

This is where the volume display comes in. How would you know if you were playing at reference level? You would know if you had a test tone that was supposed to play at a set SPL, and you had an SPL Meter to test it. But what if you wanted to play at that exact level later? In the old days, you would probably mentally remember where the volume control was set to, and just turn it to that mark.

But now, you know that if you were at -20 on the volume control, and you were watching a DVD at a certain level, it would always play all DVDs at that same level when the volume is set to -20.

What Denon has done, is make it easy for you to calibrate to reference level. Reference level on a Denon receiver is when the volume control is set to 0. However, with different speakers, the actual SPL could be different with the volume at 0. This is where the channel levels come into play.

To accurately set the system up on a Denon receiver, you go into the test tones, and turn your receiver volume to 0 (most do this for you automatically). Then you calibrate, with an SPL meter, and set each channel to 75db (75 db is used, because they knew a 105db test tone would most likely fry your ears and speakers. The signal is recorded at -30db from 105 db, so it should produce a 75 db signal at reference level volume setting). With my Klipsch speakers, I have channel levels of -4, -3, etc. You can also do this by setting your volume level to anything that you want, and adjusting your levels accordingly. For example, with my channel level setting of -4, I could just as easily call -4 on the volume my reference mark. Then my channel level would be 0. However, you are just doing the calculations that the receiver is doing. Why not let the receiver do it?

As a side note, there is absolutely no difference in power being delivered between the two. If they both create the same SPL level, they are putting out the same amount of power into the same speaker. You are not taking away any headroom from the amp, etc.

With Avia, at the same volume setting, you should get an 85db signal, because they recorded the signal at -20db. From what I have read, you should always trust the internal tones on the receiver, because Dolby certifies that it is correct. This is from a post I read by Roger Dressler of Dolby Labs at HTF.

Now, if I want to watch a movie at reference level, I just turn the volume to 0, and I know that I will be playing the movie exactly as it was intended. By the way - this is so freaking loud that I never watch a movie this loud. It is just way too uncomfortable. I generally watch a movie at about -20 to -15, so I am watching a movie 15 to 20 db below reference.

So - this is why they display the volume as they do - to match what is really going on with the spl levels. It also gives you the ability to change your volume in 1 db increments. You have tremendous control of the volume.

Also, note that you can adjust the channel levels differently for the different sound modes. And when you change your channel levels, it will adjust the max volume level (what zandern was referring to) so that the amp will not overdrive.

And if your TV is too low, it is most likely the channel or the source. The receiver will put out the same amount of power at the same volume level, but if it is not getting a strong signal, it won't put out a loud level.

I hope this helps, and I didn't babble too much!

Bryan

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"... But Honey - I promise this is the last thing I will have to buy for the Home Theater"

Mistubishi VS60603 60" RPTV

Denon AVR 3802 Receiver

Denon DVM 1800 DVD Changer

JVC 3600U SVHS VCR

RCA DirecTV Satellite Tuner

Klipsch RB5 - Mains

Klipsch RC3 - Center

Klipsch RCW3 - In-wall Surrounds

Velodyne SPL1200 Subwoofer

Monster HTS1000 Power Conditioner

Acoustic Research Pro Series Interconnects

This message has been edited by bacevedo on 05-06-2002 at 03:34 PM

[skonopa]

No, Bryan, you did not babble to much! In fact, that was very helpful. One of my next questions in these forums was going to be "how the heck do you balance your HT setup?". You just answered it for me.

I guess I'll have to go to the local Rat Shack and see if they have an SPL meter.

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Steven Konopa

Fredericksburg, VA

Denon AVR3802

RF-3II (Front)

RC-3II (Center)

RC-3II (Rear)

RS-3II (A surrounds)

Infinity RS2000.5 (B surrounds - recycled)

REL Storm III (Subwoofer 1)

Yamaha YST-SW40 (Subwoofer 2 - recycled)

32 inch Sharp (TV)

JVC XV-S65GD (DVD)

[boa12]

my b&k ref 30 puts out constant volume tones (not volume adjustable) at their ref level of 75db (obviously using much less efficient test) speaks.

so of course w/ klipsch my ref level comes out to 88db.

all speaks are balanced though which is most important here. just that i don't have a true ref level at volume 0.

but w/ the dvdp i'm at 115db at 0 volume (not for long,

that's scary ).

so just a head's up, there are some out there that don't allow for tone volume control (not that i can find anyway). don't know if it's common w/ most pre/pros or only b&k.

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My Home Systems Page

[zandern]

I just love bacevedo's, signature. I have the same problem with my fiance, and I have just begun to build mine!

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The 17th school is done, no more forum for me.

[cluless]

bacevedo-

Almost missed your post, I was incommunicado. Thanks for the info. I guess I'll have to go buy one of those spl-ometers. (If for no other reason than finding out how badly I set things up by ear)

[bacevedo]

I am glad I could help you guys out.

Thanks boa - I guess I should say my post relates to Denon receivers. Kind of funny how a "lowly" receiver does it better than a "high end" pre/pro. I know that the B&K is one heck of a device, but it seems weird that they didn't get that right.

Zandern - you will have fun being married! You do have to sacrifice your financial freedom, but believe me, I would rather have a wife than financial freedom! What you have to do is just warm her up to the idea. Just drop a few hints, and slowly mention it in conversations. Then it won't be a "What! You need to spend $1k on a subwoofer? Where did that come from?". Since you have been building up, it helps with sticker shock!

I would fully recommend an SPL Meter. You will be shocked at how far off your levels are. You will perceive the different sonic signatures of the speakers and room, as different levels, when in reality they are not. The SPL meter just sets the SPL, so it will be correct.

Bryan