Hifi gear on UPS, improved the sound, why?

[BBZink]

Good Evening,

i did an upgrade on my hifi tonight, i purchased a UPS for my vintage amp, to give him a 120v 60cycle stable, and for a strange reason, the sound improved a lot.

I also ad a second one ups for all my sources and it help the sound to?

Strange, but result is very good!

Anyone had any experience putting a USP to have a more stable 120v 60cycle for their amp?

[MikeFord]

Its hard to say much without knowing the specifics of the UPS. There are two basic types of UPS, those that operate continuously, and those that switch to battery only when AC power is lost. Most consumer units are the latter type, which means they are essentially power strips as long as the source AC is working.

Stable 120v suggests a different type of device, a line conditioner, which places a transformer between the input and output, and depending on the input voltage switches taps on the transformer to slightly step up or step down the voltage to keep the average at some preset level.

I would not suspect either device of materially changing the sound, but a few possibilities come to mind;

Time spent "improving" your hifi is like audio foreplay, you become more receptive to the listening experience.

The device has less current capacity compared to directly using the wall outlet and this creates some kind of pleasant distortion.

Some noise source in the wall circuit is being filtered out.

Something related to isolation of the ground.

[gagelle]

I've read claims of line conditioners improving sound quality but who knows if it's true? I bought one (that I have yet to unpack and hook up) because the power company frequently plays with the voltage during heat waves. I'm not expecting any sound changes but if I hear any difference, I'll let you know.

[BBZink]

Well, first condition, is my amp is old, and since i noticed voltage fluctuation, i bought the computer UPS.

I would agree with those 3:

"The device has less current capacity compared to directly using the wall outlet and this creates some kind of pleasant distortion.

Some noise source in the wall circuit is being filtered out.

Something related to isolation of the ground. "

Since it is vintage, i search web to identify neutral/ground on my cord of all appliance, and plug them correctly grounded, this might help to

Also the the heat from the transfo decrease(this was the main reason for having the UPS's), since voltage fluctuation decreases with it.

And yes, there's must be some psycho acoustic (snake oil) that help in the process! []

[BBZink]

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/other-ups/CP550SL.html?selectedTabId=specifications&imageI=#tab-box

Yup noise filtering of course is in there!¸

my version is the cyberpower cp550SL-SR, it is a single wall outlet, you could only attach to it one power cord, but rest of the spec seems similar!

anyway for 40$ does a good job and since old amp and storm hit montreal yesterday, was a good thing to have!

[BBZink]

Some answers, i found on the web

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/PolarizedOutlet.svg

On a old power cord, if you want to change the end plug:

"To identify the neutral/ground or the hot side:

The hot side is the unmarked wire.

The National Electrical
Code requires the neutral wire be identified.

Typically, you will find writing
or ribs on the neutral wire."

All those powercords, correctly align, must had hep to!

[MikeFord]

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/other-ups/CP550SL.html?selectedTabId=specifications&imageI=#tab-box

Yup noise filtering of course is in there!¸

my version is the cyberpower cp550SL-SR, it is a single wall outlet, you could only attach to it one power cord, but rest of the spec seems similar!

anyway for 40$ does a good job and since old amp and storm hit montreal yesterday, was a good thing to have!

In the specification under General, UPS Topology
Standby, that means when power is present at the wall outlet the UPS portion is charging the battery and electrcally disconnected from the UPS outlet socket. Its the same as a power strip. When the UPS is operating, wall outlet is disconnected from the UPS outlet which is powered from the battery, usually a light will flash and some type of alarm will beep or something every few seconds or minutes.

[Mallette]

I can't see anything to suggest the nature of the power, so long as the pressure and amount is correct, would result in any effects on audio from a properly designed circuit.

Open to being convinced, but pretty much happy with the sound of music powered by ERCOT (electric reliability council of Texas) through yer basic copper wires...at least when it's available.

Dave

PS - I am also quite OK with those who DO hear a difference, but glad they have to pay to fix it and not me!

[Music Luva]

As with anything musical, quality signal yeilds quality output. It's true of amps, speakers, signal processing, input devices, interconnects, speaker wire and power source.

Not all links in the chain are equal. But each time you get closer to purity in one area, the output always gets a little better.

I agree with what has been said earlier. Any time you can provide a clean and stable power source, you get the most from your equipment. This discussion reminds me of some concepts in the car audio world. That world deals with certain problems we take for granted or don't emphasize as much in HT. Clean sufficient power is always a problem. The amps are always competing with the car for the precious limited supply of power produced by the electrical system. Electrical noise and interferance are the nature of the beast.

These problems come to the surface most notably with bass. When reproducing the lowest bass notes, especially in succession, the entire system is stressed beyond capacitance. Headlights dim and while the amp will produce the notes, the entire audio system will suffer as the bass amp starves all others for the power it desperately needs.

In car audio, high end systems or those wanting to defeat these problems, employ additional batteries, high output alternators and capacitors.

When was the last time you added a 2nd breaker box to your home when upgraded your audio gear? Haven't bought any capacitors for your amps? Haven't asked the electric company for more power?

Your UPS is solving some of these issues that plaque, but not as noticeable, to most home audio systems. Most people simply do not realize how inefficient their system is. It's just easier to buy a bigger amp/receiver. Not too mention truly fixing those issues are more expensive than the working stiff is willing to spend.

However, I take it you're not listening to your music at high volumes or stressing your amp. I say that because nearly all consumer UPS's cannot handle the demand of truly high current draw the way music and movies demand in certain passages. All UPS's will shutdown when the equipment demands more power than it is rated at supplying. It's something to keep in mind. Many years ago I did some experimenting with 750VA UPS on a Pioneer digital receiver. After a few scenes in Lord of the Rings, I realized I was getting annoyed having to get up every few mintues to reset the UPS and turn my gear back on. After that experience, I let my amp run straight from the wall. But I've always had the rest of my gear on a UPS.

Soon, I'm having an electrician buddy add 2 dedicated 20A circuits to my HT room. One for each amp.

I'm glad your improvement has brought you new found enjoyement. And I'm sorry you had to read my long winded thoughts!

[Mallette]

Soon, I'm having an electrician buddy add 2 dedicated 20A circuits to my HT room. One for each amp.

Good Lord, man! Either of those circuits would be loafing if I had my two main systems on it producing more db each than the human ear can handle without damage.

If your systems require that much power to get the quality of sound that works for you, cool and I'm sure I'd be absolutely delighted to be there. No way I can state that efficient systems sound better in general than inefficient systems. I can, however, state unequivably that high efficiency systems sound better to me and no such system needs anything like 20 amps.

JMHO.

Dave

[Dennie]

Soon, I'm having an electrician buddy add 2 dedicated 20A circuits to my HT room. One for each amp.

Good Lord, man! Either of those circuits would be loafing if I had my two main systems on it producing more db each than the human ear can handle without damage.

If your systems require that much power to get the quality of sound that works for you, cool and I'm sure I'd be absolutely delighted to be there. No way I can state that efficient systems sound better in general than inefficient systems. I can, however, state unequivably that high efficiency systems sound better to me and no such system needs anything like 20 amps.

JMHO.

Dave

I agree with Dave. That is a lot of electricity!

....and I'm not even going to ask about 2 amps running your HT! Okay, Yes I am! A Stereo and a 3 Channel amp?

Dennie

EDIT: Oops! I forgot to say... I did enjoy your post Waaz_up!

[Music Luva]

Well, let me first say... I'm single and have lived the lifestyle for most of my life. So, it's not like this is some passing fancy for me. But I will say, I've had a resurgence in my love of home audio. Like most people, I work. And my career took a big bite out of my true love (home audio) for many years. Now, that I'm back.... I'M BACK!

Second, let me explain the beliefs that have driven me for years about amps/speakers and such. I tend to be a solid state guy. Much like I've always been a CD kinda guy (over 400 albums in my library). Tubes and records are for the "purists" and have never been my thing. And while I've always had a discerning ear, I've just never heard that beckoning for tubes and records. So, here I am solid state and cds. Love me or hate me!

And before I get bombarded by the tube guys, I HAVE heard MY speakers on tubes. While completeing my recent transaction for my CF-3s, I auditioned them in the guy's house. He had them on Marantz tubes @ 26W per channel. I've got a pretty good ear and I tend to remember sonic impressions. As I've listened to them over the past few weeks on my Sherwood Newcastle (biamped and biwired), I can say the sonic difference is truly not that much for me. Tube people are clarity people. I appreciate clarity, but amplified stage is VERY important to me. Now, I will say that I AM still considering possible using a tube for the hi end and solid state on the low end. But it's not tickled my fancy just right at the moment. While I appreciate the tube world, I'm lucky to be able to achieve what I want from solid state.

Yes, I'm a hard rocker. Explain it now?

Third, I also have a insatiable craving for Home Theater. It's reflected in my DVD library (over 400 movies). HT has always satisfied my enjoyment of "many" speakers and imaging. I like feeling immersed in the action. Anyone that's ever known me has always referred to me as the person in their life who has that audio system they always wanted.

Whatever I'm listening to... I like it loud. Yes, my hearing is fine thanks! Loud music and movies teleport me away from the world like no other experience I've had (sorry, no drugs here). They block out the world and I feel I'm center stage in my own personal show.

So, being a solid state guy... power is everything. Currently, my HT room has 3 15A outlets on the same circuit. I live in a 30+ yo home.

Currently, I have a 5 channel system with Sherwood Newcastle components. Including the AM-9080 amp. It is an absolute beast (5 x 125w). And it gets its honest. No single transformer here. And honestly, when I'm listening to movies... it's all or nothing. As you can imagine, my tv, components and amp all running at the same time is taking the circuit to it's limits.

I am currently upgrading my system. I've acquired a pair of CF-3s in very nice condition. And I've decided they will be my dedicated stereo listening speakers. And I'm also expanding my 5 channel HT to 7 channel. The CF-3's wont be part of the HT. So, all told, I'll have 9 speakers in my system. And I'm looking to acquire another AM-9080 or an A-965 (7 channel). I have a WTB on the site right now. Either way, the CF-3's will have their own amp. And yes, I'm kinda stuck on Sherwood Newcastle. I can't plug them enough. Too bad the rest of the world hasn't given them their due respect.

When I brought my buddy over and told him of my plans, he told me to add 2 dedicated circuits to ensure clean and sufficient power. 1 for each amp. Leaving the existing 15A circuit for my components and TV. The reason he suggested 20A wasn't due to need because I had thought they would be 15A. He said as long as you're there doing it, it was just a no brainer to add 2 20s instead of 2 15s. Even if you don't need them now, you have no idea what is coming in the future.

So, you see it's not that I'm trying to create a small concert hall in my house. My taste and needs dictate the need for power.

YES... single people have too much time on their hands.

[Mallette]

Tube people are clarity people.

Depends on what you mean by "clarity." The reason I listen only to digital and tubes is that transistors are way too clinical. Digital is in the middle, accurate but somehow smoother than transistors.

Of course, that's entirely me and in no way suggests "right." Right is what sounds good to YOU.

Being a Heritage guy I don't really know anything about the power requirements for CF-3s, but I find it hard to believe any Klipsch product wouldn't break windows and permanently damage hearing...and do so cleanly...on 20 amps.

Dave

[Dennie]

Hey Waaz_up, it sounds like you've got a plan and you're having a great time with your HT and 2 Channel set ups! That is what this hobby is all about and I'm glad "Your Back"!! Like Dave said, it only has to sound good to you and if you're lovin' it, I'm lovin' it! I've heard good things about Sherwood Newcastle, but I've never had the pleasure of listening to any. I'll see if I can correct that over site!

If I haven't said it, Welcome to the Klipsch Forums, we're glad your here.

Dennie

[Music Luva]

Tube people are clarity people.

Depends on what you mean by "clarity." The reason I listen only to digital and tubes is that transistors are way too clinical. Digital is in the middle, accurate but somehow smoother than transistors.

Of course, that's entirely me and in no way suggests "right." Right is what sounds good to YOU.

Being a Heritage guy I don't really know anything about the power requirements for CF-3s, but I find it hard to believe any Klipsch product wouldn't break windows and permanently damage hearing...and do so cleanly...on 20 amps.

Dave

Oh, take no ill feelings from anything I said. I was just light heartedly poking at the tube guys. But you hit the nail right on the head, it's what sounds right to you. I think that sentiment gets lost sometimes. And ironically, it is the Klipsch forums that I hear it from the most. I guess Klipsch has such a love/hate appeal in the audio world that those who enjoy Klipsch know that all music and listening is an acquired taste designed with one person in mind; You.

As I said in the last post, the 20amp thing was his recommendation. I work with this guy at the same factory. He and I believe in the same workmanship; if you're gonna do it, do it right. He was simply suggesting that a 20a will do nothing more for me than a 15a, but it would give me all the flexibilities I could ever need in the future. And, most importantly, the cost is minimal between the 2. So, it was just a small luxury. Not in any way meant to signify that I stole parts of the Chernoble reactor and plan to use it to power my Klipsch.

In reference to the "two dedicated" channels, I am running two amps that have decent power requirements at higher volumes. And considering some day I will be added a sub, it's just good sense to separate your components when you can to prevent noise, looping or any other electrical issues with your gear. Again, I won't be using 55A of power in my HT room but for a small investment ($200 or so) I can have the luxury of good clean power.

In the end, every one does things their own way. And while I know it might be a bit over kill, I'm reminded of how important dedicated circuits are in my particular situation each time the central air turns on. That tell tell flickering of lights on the same cricuit reminds me that power hungry devices need... power.

I think the biggest thing people misunderstand about me is how I get my listening enjoyment. I truly enjoy the feel of a concert stage. And while those listening levels represent only a quarter of my listening enjoyment, they are the complete icing on my listening cake. Without it, I wouldn't feel about music and movies the way I do. I don't have the wife or others to worry about. I can listen to things the way I want. And I do.

Again, I don't listen at the level all the time. But it is nice every now and again to do so. I equate it my car. Most of the time I drive 70mph - 80mph on the interstate. But every once in a great while 110mph is reached on the speedometer. And when it does, it's exhiliariting.

[Mallette]

I think the biggest thing people misunderstand about me is how I get my listening enjoyment.

See my signature line...sez it all far better than I can. Enjoy!!!!

Dave

[MikeFord]

Just so nobody gets the wrong impression, consumer grade UPS units create about the worst excuse ever passed for AC power. Its a modified, filtered usually, square or triangle wave full of harmonic distortion, and the UPS may react in all sorts of wacky ways to varying loads. Many devices react very poorly to UPS power. They are made to keep a computer switch mode power supply alive long enough for people to save data and shut down in an orderly fashion. I would never use one with audio unless it was critical to operate the system and no other source of power was available.

OTOH I like having dedicated lines for the hifi, and would do so anytime the cost was not too prohibitive.

[BBZink]

One week, since i put the ups, and it sound better than ever! won't go back, maybe it is the RFI that are missing, anyhow, it's sound grrrrreat!

[Dennie]

One week, since i put the ups, and it sound better than ever! won't go back, maybe it is the RFI that are missing, anyhow, it's sound grrrrreat!

You know, that is all that matters! I'm glad you're liking your system with the added protection. [<)]

Dennie

[LarryC]

Stable 120v suggests a different type of device, a line conditioner, which places a transformer between the input and output, and depending on the input voltage switches taps on the transformer to slightly step up or step down the voltage to keep the average at some preset level.

I'm not familiar with those technical design features, but do know that my PS Audio P-300, which generates pure sine wave power, will make anything with a motor sound quite a bit better -- turntables, CD players, tape players, etc. Several forum members use them apparently for that purpose. Perhaps that's effectively what your unit is doing.

I haven't found it to have any positive effect on electronics-only components like amps or preamps.