onawav Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I should be getting my RF-7 IIs delivered within the next few days. Quite exciting. You can read my system in my sig. Onkyo TX-NR809 AVR, an old Klipsch RC-25 center and some Klipsch Synergies that will pull surround duty. Anyway, I'm trying to build the system to have two faces: a decent HT and a quality 2-channel system. I anticipate adding an amplifier in the coming months to provide dedicated power and richness to the RF-7 IIs. I like what I've heard about Emotiva and I like their value proposition. I think the XPA-3 and XPA-2 are both great looking amps I'm considering adding to my system. If I selected the XPA-2, I would have a dedicated 300 watts to each of the mains, but the center would still have to run off the AVR. It could provide the most benefit to 2-channel listening. If I went with the XPA-3, I could dedicate 200 watts to each of my LCR speakers and save around $100 over the XPA-2 and provide extra benefits to multi-channel listening. What difference would that extra 100 makes to normal (slightly below reference) listening volumes? Would I be missing out on any dynamics or bass while listening in 2-channel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 The difference in a good room or a bad room could be ten times the difference you could hear between those amps.Get the one that fits your needs/budget, you are never gonna use 200 watts to get way beyond reference levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 The difference in a good room or a bad room could be ten times the difference you could hear between those amps.Get the one that fits your needs/budget, you are never gonna use 200 watts to get way beyond reference levels. Fish is right. Get yourself a good 2 channel amp and let the receiver power the center and surrounds. Use any "left over" money to treat the room. Keep us posted on the RF-7 II's, I can't wait to read the smile on your face!! Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERDAN Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 This has come from my experience and multiple studys on sound technology but when it comes to speakers, power never sounds better just because a amplifier has more watts to provide but the technology and application that the power is delivered to the speakers does. When your looking at the amplifiers power output specifications, the only thing that it can refer to is the SPL that will be required for the speaker to produce, a speaker will only take as much power as it needs for a given ratio of volume (and frequency) it will not just receive the full power that a amp is specified for because thats not how speakers function. So when it comes to powering speakers for a given volume ratio you actually do not need a lot of power with klipsch. If someone has a actual power graph for the output of RF7's i would love to see it but im sure that the power required is no more than about 150 watts average at a full THX SPL Recording. There are important things to look for when looking at amplifiers and thats the technology used including the quality of the parts, the application of the materials used and the final builds performance with the manufacturing of the equipment. With Emotiva this is exactly what has made them such the popular company that they are because they are not like a lot of the avr manufacturers out there who just try to win people over by hyped specifications and false advertising. You also have to look for the diliver of the power as different equipment deliver power in many different ways for eg, Rotel RB-1582 has a higher damping factor than its little brother RB-1552 even though the technology used is very similar but the they were built differently for application reasons. The RB1582 has a higher current to voltage ratio than its little brother and that gives it a much better reproduction of sound along with the increased power to help with headroom, these are the things that separate other amplifiers from eachother. So in regards to your question and i hope i can help you as im not entierly familar with Emotiva equipment but as it stands the rules for what you need still apply no matter what your quest is, having the extra power can improve audio quality but imo its not because the speaker has more power because it will infact not use anything more than it is already been provided with but the extra power will put less stress on the equipment and therby reducing the distortion of sound due to having more stability in the control of the signal. BTW Hi Dennie hows the family.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 In practical terms not much really, what is that 1.5 db? However, there is a difference between a lightweight 200 watt amp and a powerhouse 300 watt amp. In most product lines that is the point where the really huge amps come into play. There is a big step up when you get into strong 300 plus watt amp. Anybody that has owned one will tell you they bring a certain amount of bass weight into the music. Having owned some loudspeakers that could suck 500 wpc dry, I can say I have a little big amp experience. At any rate, I'd give Emotiva a call and ask but most of the guys say get a pair of XPA-1s. P.S. The really strong solid state amps "double down" into 4 ohms. In other words the 4 ohm rating is twice the 8 ohm rating. That tells you about their power supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onawav Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Good responces, all. I agree that I probably won't be feeding them 300 watts often/ever, but felt that the extra headroom might help to ensure a clean signal and power reserve for the impedence dips I keep hearing the RF-7s like to do. And I do have room treatments in the plan. I have about an 800 sq ft capet-floored room with cathedral ceilings. It opens into a dining room and hallway. It is almost square, which I understand can also present some sound problems. We plan to add some heavy drapes for the windows and a couple acoustic panels in strategic places to help slow reflection and echo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Good responces, all. I agree that I probably won't be feeding them 300 watts often/ever, but felt that the extra headroom might help to ensure a clean signal and power reserve for the impedence dips I keep hearing the RF-7s like to do. How far do you sit from the speakers? If you've calibrated the Onkyo, what is the maximum level per the volume dial that you listen at? What is the maximum you would like to listen at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 P.S. The really strong solid state amps "double down" into 4 ohms. In other words the 4 ohm rating is twice the 8 ohm rating. That tells you about their power supply. The Emotiva don't. Most pro amps that I have looked at don't either, in Emo's defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 P.S. The really strong solid state amps "double down" into 4 ohms. In other words the 4 ohm rating is twice the 8 ohm rating. That tells you about their power supply. The Emotiva don't. Most pro amps that I have looked at don't either, in Emo's defense. The XPA-1 does. Hey, all I can do is to relate some of my experience. You can do what you want with the information. After you have hooked up a pair of XPA-1s to your system, you'll see what I was talking about. I've said it more than once, if you want to play (loud), you have to pay. I believe in using a sledge hammer. You may want to argue about 50 watts here or 100 watts there, I don't. I want to solve the problem, throw some real watts to it and be done, no need to sneak up on it. My increments are 60 watts per channel/250 wpc/350+wpc. The steps in between aren't worth the cost. It has mostly due to the power supplies rather than the output power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jxhopper Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I only know this. I originally had my RF-7IIs powered by Onkyo 875 receiver. Now I have them bi-amped with 2 200watt class A PS audio amps which weigh about 70lbs each. Now, this may be overkill, but I assure you the RF-7IIs like good clean power .... and lots of it. THe difference in the bass and the sonic improvement of the high end is night and day to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Now I have them bi-amped with 2 200watt class A PS audio amps which weigh about 70lbs each. Now you're talking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I think we can all agree a Boulder amp is likely to sound better than an Emotiva of similar power.The difference in 200 or 300 Emotiva watts will be some small % that 99% of listeners would never hear.If money is no concern go bigger and better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I only know this. I originally had my RF-7IIs powered by Onkyo 875 receiver. Now I have them bi-amped with 2 200watt class A PS audio amps which weigh about 70lbs each. Now, this may be overkill, but I assure you the RF-7IIs like good clean power .... and lots of it. THe difference in the bass and the sonic improvement of the high end is night and day to me. Did you notice an increase in your electic bill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRFL Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Considering the average of general ratings on amplifiers I would suggest the 200watts gives a reasonable 20watts usable and the 300watts gives 30watts usable. I was checking the specs on the best QSC professional amps and distortion is generally 0.1% at rated power 8 ohms 20 - 20khz both channels driven and 0.01% at -10dB. The optimum amplifier power is therefore 10 times that of the speaker capacity as you can only average power usage at -10dB. The change in 10dB sounds twice as loud even though the power has changed 10 times. Considering all this an increase from 200 to 300 is very marginal in the scheme of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Considering the average of general ratings on amplifiers I would suggest the 200watts gives a reasonable 20watts usable and the 300watts gives 30watts usable.I was checking the specs on the best QSC professional amps and distortion is generally 0.1% at rated power 8 ohms 20 - 20khz both channels driven and 0.01% at -10dB. The optimum amplifier power is therefore 10 times that of the speaker capacity as you can only average power usage at -10dB. Couple notes on your train of thought there: 1. When putting out 200 watts continuously, an Emo XPA-3 will be running around 0.1% distortion. OK. How much distortion will the RF-7 IIs be putting out when driven by 200 watts continuously? 2. Shouldn't the user's volume requirements enter your equation for optimum amplification? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onawav Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 I finally got the RF-7 IIs in yesterday and got them hooked up. My Onkyo TX-NR809 is rated for 135 wpc while driving two channels. I have the RF-7IIs bi-amped so four of the 809's channels are devoted to the RF-7s. I couldn't tell you if bi-amping is helpful, but j figured it couldnt hurt. So far, I can say I really don't have any concern about volume. It gets plenty loud for my needs without even being turned up very high. It's mostly about the "quality of watt" versus the SPLs that makes me interested in amplification. I know many would say the that tubes produce what I'm looking for, but budgetarily that would not be a viable option. I suppose the tubes produce a higher "average power"? The only reason I'm considering 300 watts is to ensure that it has the headroom to produce anything it needs at reasonable volumes. Btw, although the Onkyo units tend to be criticized for being "non-musical", when the "Pure Audio" mode is used, it has a very clean, neutral sound. Some of the other modes that are equalized can be a bit more harsh at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 It gets plenty loud for my needs without even being turned up very high. It's mostly about the "quality of watt" versus the SPLs that makes me interested in amplification. What about the RF-7 II/Onkyo 809 combination do you feel is lacking? I know many would say the that tubes produce what I'm looking for, but budgetarily that would not be a viable option. I suppose the tubes produce a higher "average power"? What makes you think tubes are what you're looking for? They do not have higher "average power", although they can clip more gracefully than some solid state amplifiers. Of course, when you're at the point of 300 watt amplifiers with high efficiency speakers, I can't see how clipping would be a major concern. The only reason I'm considering 300 watts is to ensure that it has the headroom to produce anything it needs at reasonable volumes. How far do you sit from your speakers? What is a reasonable volume? Those things combined with the sensitivity of your speakers have a great impact upon how much power you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornfedksboy Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Pure Audio is complete by-pass of any EQ by the receiver, so it should only be the source, amps, and speakers that you hear. That is, IMO, the most musical way to listen if you've got the speakers to do the job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Pure Audio is complete by-pass of any EQ by the receiver, so it should only be the source, amps, and speakers that you hear. That is, IMO, the most musical way to listen if you've got the speakers to do the job! It also disables bass management, any DSP processing, and the video circuitry. If you have an analog source, theoretically, it acts as a straight wire to the amplifier. Edit: PS: Out of curiosity, did you re-run Audyssey after hooking up the RF-7s? Did you follow the procedures for taking measurements (use a tripod, use all measurement locations, start at the primary listening position, and fan out from there about 2-3 feet away at a time, etc)? I find that I vastly prefer stereo mode over Pure Audio mode, but it depends on what you're looking to hear I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I enjoy reading your thread as I have wandered through my amp trials in the past decades as well. A point on distortion. It only takes one vibrating picture frame to make me nuts. I cannot recall any amp design I have used causing listening fatigue like room issues or bad digital jitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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