Are Klipschorns For Me?

[Chris A]

Maybe someone could clear up the concept of "sealed corners"? A few folks have used that term, but I'm not sure what it means. Seal what? Against what?

Just to clarify ... I can definitely clear the way to two good -- but probably not great -- corners. The fact is that this is a multi-purpose room. Both front corners feature lots of wood (logs) separated by thin strips of concrete. Not much to be done there -- just the way the place was built. The front right corner has glass-paned doors down the right side wall. I can work on those -- close them (obviously) and hang a curtain over them or even cover them with a removable wood panel perhaps. But, like most of the other construction details, the doors really have to stay. They don't have to be open, though, and they don't have to have directly exposed glass.

Does this sound workable? Maybe someone has a specific suggestion for what to do with this trouble[d] corner?

The seal that is required is the portion of the Khorn that touches the two walls, commonly called the "tailpiece". This must seal the corner between the backwards-exiting bass bin "mouths" order to keep them separated acoustically. I use foamed air-conditioning piping insulation that is split along its length in order to install over A/C piping. If you go to your local Lowes or Home Depot store, this is an abundant and relatively cheap item - buy several pieces. Simply cut the insulation to fit over the edges of the tailpiece vertically - the cut split foam insulation will clamp itself to the tailpiece when you install them on the Khorn. You can also seal the top of the bass bin-top hat interface if you wish (to keep from marring the walls when you push the unit back into the corner).

It is important to keep the Khorn symmetrically aligned at 45 degrees to the corner if not using false corner in order to avoid two unequally formed bass bin "mouths" exiting from the Khorn and corner of the room (as discussed in the attached pdf file).

I've also included the sheet on "how to build a false corner". The use of false corners in your case will alleviate the need to seal the Khorn bass bin against the irregularly-shaped corner walls tightly, and will allow you to independently aim the top hats (tweeter/midrange horns) directly at your center listening position..

The false corners will also provide a surface onto which you can apply acoustic absorbant material on either side of the midrange horn to control early reflections, which will dramatically improve imaging performance (...more to come on this subject later...). If you decide to use false corners, you still need to seal the Khorn tailpiece to the false corners using a method described above.

Chris

Dope from Hope - Sealing Khorn Tailpiece, and False Corners.pdf

[AstralFurious]

OK, got it! So, the takeaway is that I really need *smooth* walls in order to achieve a correct "fit." As I mentioned earlier, that's going to be darn near impossible to achieve. And false corners are going to add enough bulk that I'm going to run into problems fitting them into those available spaces, I think.

Hmmm ... I really didn't anticipate running into such problems with K-Horn setup. That's just my own ignorance. I also think that my listening position is not going to work. I'll be 10-12 feet from the front wall; speakers will be separated by 15-18 feet. Pretty discouraging that these really seem to need a purpose-driven room...

Well, how about La Scalas? Possibly better for my environment? There's a pair of the original LS (not model II) with AL crossovers available near me for $1000.

[Chris A]

P.S. To the fellow who asked, my wallet isn't fat enough at the moment for a Vector tonearm(!)...

I might humbly suggest that a better investment option might be two Jubilee bass bins. They don't require false corners, and can be bought with wood veneer fronts (...I bought basic black..). The units behind my Jubs are tapped-horn subwoofers that add the bottom octave to the bass bin (i.e., 17-34 Hz). They also allow the Jubs to be placed in front of the brick masonry in order to avoid early reflections which cause a large degradation in imaging of the midrange frequencies. The white objects along the side walls are bass traps that I was experimenting with. They are no longer there now.

The really big horn on top of the Jubilee is the Klipsch K-402 and it is an even bigger reason to think about Jubilees to achieve ~sonic nirvana. But I wouldn't want to tempt you... [6]

Chris

[Chris A]

I also think that my listening position is not going to work. I'll be 10-12 feet from the front wall; speakers will be separated by 15-18 feet. Pretty discouraging that these really seem to need a purpose-driven room...

If you time align the drivers of the Khorns, you can sit 10-12 feet away. It will require tri-amping...

I sit about 9 feet back in a room that is 15.5 feet wide (40 feet deep, 10 feet high). It works great, but I'm using time-aligned Jubilees.

Chris

[LarryC]

OK, got it! So, the takeaway is that I really need *smooth* walls in order to achieve a correct "fit." As I mentioned earlier, that's going to be darn near impossible to achieve. And false corners are going to add enough bulk that I'm going to run into problems fitting them into those available spaces, I think.

Hmmm ... I really didn't anticipate running into such problems with K-Horn setup. That's just my own ignorance. I also think that my listening position is not going to work. I'll be 10-12 feet from the front wall; speakers will be separated by 15-18 feet. Pretty discouraging that these really seem to need a purpose-driven room...

Well, how about La Scalas? Possibly better for my environment?

I dunno if you really need "smooth" log-free walls, as much as sealing the walls of the bass horn passageways from leaking sound waves out the top, bottom and sides before they get to the bass horn mouth. That's my guess. Use pipe insulation on both sides of the tail board and along the bottom of the top hat/top of the bass bin, and then see if you can see daylight at the back near the sides of the tailboard and along the bottom of the top hat. You may have to improvise with something bulkier if pipe insulation doesn't fill in the chinks between the logs.

I suggest a wall panel to cover any glass panes in the bass horn passageway. Glass is transparent to bass, so you'll lose it if you don't. A wall panel will almost hide behind a bass bin.

I agree, I don't like the extra bulk and potentially disruptive looks of false corners.

From what I've read and heard, 15-18 feet is at the outer limits of acceptability without needing a center speaker. My guess is your room's reflective surfaces are so richly broken up that it should sound great. Sitting only 10-12 feet back is a little close if you're fanatic about a "sweet spot" (I'm not, but I have only one good ear). Again I'll bet the dispersion in that great room will make it less of a problem. You should certainly try it IMO.

LaScalas take up a lot of room, because they don't snug into corners. You probably would use less space with K-horns, and your room space will be more convenient. I suggest you take and measure out the dimensions of both and see how they'd fit. The big problem with LaScalas for classical music is they drop off rapidly below 60 Hz whereas the K-horns are good for 33 Hz. The lowest string bass notes and 16' organ C's won't sound on the La's like they will on the 33-Hz lower limit K-horn.

As for the Jubilee, be sure to measure, as I think they're larger. Also (just MHO), they're not as finished a product because of open crossover and treble driver and horn questions. Using electronic crossovers inserts SS into your all-tube chain. As with Altec-Klipsch combinations, you need to listen to what you're getting to be sure.

Personally, I'd stick with the K-horn...

[Chris A]

As for the Jubilee, be sure to measure, as I think they're larger.

About the size of a Khorn with false corner.

Also (just MHO), they're not as finished a product because of open crossover and treble driver and horn questions.

Oops...nt... [:-*]

Using electronic crossovers inserts SS into your all-tube chain.

This is a red herring...and is #2 on the No-BS list...

Chris

[Chris A]

Well, how about La Scalas? Possibly better for my environment? There's a pair of the original LS (not model II) with AL crossovers available near me for $1000.

La Scalas are basically Khorn drivers in a smaller box. You lose 1 1/2 octave on the bottom (~32 Hz --> ~100 Hz)--an octave that you will miss on classical music. Most people place their La Scalas out into the room - this causes even more lf performance loss. The tweeter/midrange is closer to the floor - I find that the Khorn tweeter/midrange height to be about right - the La Scala's are a bit low for my needs (furniture tends to get in the way of mf/hf room coverage). And their form factor is not much better than Khorns.

Other than that, the price is right. For those that can live with the downside mentioned above, I find that they love them for imaging/soundstage.

Chris

[Dennie]

Well, how about La Scalas? Possibly better for my environment? There's a pair of the original LS (not model II) with AL crossovers available near me for $1000.

La Scalas are basically Khorn drivers in a smaller box. You lose 1 1/2 octave on the bottom (~32 Hz --> ~100 Hz)--an octave that you will miss on classical music. Most people place their La Scalas out into the room - this causes even more lf performance loss. The tweeter/midrange is closer to the floor - I find that the Khorn tweeter/midrange height to be about right - the La Scala's are a bit low for my needs (furniture tends to get in the way of mf/hf room coverage). And their form factor is not much better than Khorns.

Other than that, the price is right. For those that can live with the downside mentioned above, I find that they love them for imaging/soundstage.

Chris

And a good Subwoofer will fill-in the missing bottom end! If you're so inclined! []

Dennie

[Chris A]

And a good Subwoofer will fill-in the missing bottom end! If you're so inclined!

Concur.

[Cut-Throat]

I definitely think completed K-horns are where you want to go, especially given your efficiency needs. Trying to mix and match different brands and horns like Klipsch and Altec isn't likely to do what Klipsch does IMO -- create a sound field that sounds musical and UNIFORM from top to bottom. Seamless, in a word. I don't think you'll get that with Altec, though that's just my opinion.

For someone starting out with Klipschorns this is good advice, but once you get used to tweaking crossovers, tweeters etc., the big improvements come with replacing the midrange.

Actually this is quite easy and probably the biggest upgrade I have ever done in Audio. The Klipschorn midrange driver is rather small and meant to fit inside the tophat. Once you start 'thinking outside the tophat' spectacular improvements can be made. Large format Altec Horns and drivers can be jaw dropping upgrades to Klipschorns.

Greg Roberts of Volti Audio and ALK engineering both offer these upgrades. Once you are ready for an upgrade, there is no better bang for the upgrade buck that getting a bigger Midrange horn and Driver. My Top Hats have been gathering dust under the stairway storage for 6 years now.

[LarryC]

Here is a lengthy thread with fabulous pics of physically beautiful Jubes located south of Richmond, VA, and an extensive back-and-forth on listening and performance characteristics: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/147478.aspx?PageIndex=1

[Chris A]

Here is a lengthy thread with fabulous pics of physically beautiful Jubes

Larry - that is a very good case study, and very apropos to the subject at hand. Thanks for finding that thread.

Note that when I started my audio journey with Jubs four years ago, I made many, many mistakes that took me a long time to 1) recognize, and 2) correct. I'm still correcting the issues and discovering the issues, but that's part of the game. It's also a large measure of the satisfaction of owning them.

Being a little bit of a maven, note that I intend to put together a FAQ on imaging of corner horns in like fashion to the FAQ on biamping/triamping done about 18 months ago. The bottom line: corner horns are only "plug and play" if you know the rules. An elicitation of the "rules" of corner horns is the missing piece.

Larry, I can see why you might have been very disappointed in the audition that you listened to (at a drive from your abode, I might add...). You know the rules of using Khorns, and the rules of setting up Jubs is not far from those.

"...And you can't break these rules..."

Regards,

Chris

[LarryC]

Chris,

I don't want to be misunderstood -- I was very impressed with his setup, which had exceptional strong points in the clarity and quality dispersion of the music -- no one felt the need to find the "sweet spot," as I recall, unlike the usual K-horn listening experience. (I don't have to do that, as I have only one good ear,) However, I wasn't too surprised to hear different characteristics between his bass and treble sections, which I attributed to entirely different electronics above and below. I think he said his setup was a work in progress, and I agreed. He had some ideas about where to go next, of course. If it were mine, my first step would be to unify the electronics (i.e., the same amp) for the treble and bass. Perhaps easier said than done.

One big question for me is how much I'm going to like what someone else likes, and do I even hear (let alone like) approximately the same thing as the next fellow. In other words, hearing music as a shared experience seems one step removed from seeing it directly -- it's not like looking at a painting or book where each person can focus on something in particular. Music is a step removed from that. I think it's only when people are used to hearing the same thing, like a Beethoven work that they both know, and can talk about, that some idea of exactly WHAT is being shared and agreed upon, is more fully understood by both parties. IOW, when somebody else says a new mid horn is "much better," I don't have any way of knowing what exactly he/she is hearing so that I can agree or disagree. So, I have a little more reservation about how good another, slightly different Jube with mixed electronics is actually going to sound, and less confidence in whether another party is going to hear it like I do. Same with Trachorns (I didn't like one example I heard).

I think installing K-horns is much closer to plug and play than Jubes -- but you're right, one sometimes has to work with imperfect placement and associated equipment issues like electronics and TT/arm/cart. I think Astral is way ahead in my view where my taste in pres and amps is concerned. Hence I'd have doubts about inserting SS in his system.

I've always thought that SS in the Jub chain is audible and not totally positive. Even Mac SS is not always positive IMO. However, I was very impressed with the bass quality from Klipschfoot's big SS stereo amp on Garymd's system several years ago, so I don't want to declare tube victory as yet.

Yes, it was a LONG drive. GPS nav in my car was a lifesaver as usual. The hosting was great!

[Islander]

Matching bass and treble amps are the way to go. Matching tone is important, plus matching power. According to Dr Who, differences of less than a dB can sometimes be audible, so trying to get two dissimilar amps to match up near perfectly would be near impossible.

As for the SS sound, Class D amps, the better ones at least, can have a "tubey" sound.

Getting Jubilees or JubScalas dialed in can be a bit trying, but it doesn't take long, and the results are very rewarding. I"m going into the fourth year with my JubScalas, and the only speakers I'd consider replacing them with would be Jubilees.

[Chris A]

The false corners will also provide a surface onto which you can apply acoustic absorbant material on either side of the midrange horn to control early reflections, which will dramatically improve imaging performance (...more to come on this subject later...).

See the following thread for a discussion on this subject.

Chris