New Home Theater

[sebmc]

I want to build a system between now and July. I want to start with two F-30s and a receiver. Over the next few months I will buy a C-20, two S-20s, a 10" sub, and two B-20s for the whole 7.1 system. I don't know anything about receivers or how much power this system will take. I have been looking at Denon and Yamaha, but again I do not know what I need. Any tips on a receiver or this system in general would be appreciated.

[cornfedksboy]

Welcome to the forum! I would first recommend that you get a 12" sub or two, or maybe just one 15 incher. The bass impact for HT can not be understated, and since you are planning a 7 channel system with large towers, I'm going to guess you are going to put it in a relatively decent sized room. There are several internet direct companies that make great subs at a fraction of the price.

As for receivers, Denon and Yamaha are good and would do your system proud. Others to consider would be Onkyo, Harman Kardon, and Pioneer. Also, if you aren't familiar, Emotiva is a highly regarded internet direct company that makes "seperates," in that they have one piece of electronics that processes and signal from your source (Blu-Ray or cable/satelite) and sends it to the TV and amps. The amps are seperate and power the speakers. The benefit of this is that you get better/cleaner power, although at a higher initial price. If you get a receiver, make sure you get one with pre-outs so that an external amplifier can be added. Very few receivers do well powering 7 channels and by adding 2 or 3 amps to the front soundstage on your receiver, you can get much better sound. As far as power goes, a 7 channel receiver with 80 wpc will work, espescially if you plan on adding amps. If you want to keep the system simple, I would suggest 140 wpc Pioneer Elite or Yamaha.

That's some basic info. Please ask additional questions that address your specific needs/interests and I or others can get more specific.

[tragusa3]

As Cornfed said, Impossible to give useful help to you without a room description and an idea of your goals. With more info, you'll get more useful comments.

[sebmc]

After looking at the room and thinking about what I want I decided to go with a 5.1 instead of the 7.1. The room I want the speakers in is roughly 15x20 and is open to a dinning room and kitchen. The system is mostly for movies but will be used for music about 30% of the time. I want good, clear sound that does not have to be incredibly loud. I want the system to have plenty of power so I can feel the sound but I don't need to blow my windows out. Now that I am looking at a 5.1 system I want to know if a Denon AVR1312, or a Yamaha RX-V371 would be enough to power the system. If a amplifier is going to make a big difference in the sound I will get one but I am trying to keep the system simple. Any recommendations on receivers, amps, or different speakers would be appreciated. I am open to any suggestions. What I am looking at right now is either one of the above receivers, two F-30s, a C-20, two S-20s, and a SW-450 for $2,100.00. I think this is a good deal, but I don't know. Also any advice on speaker wire or banana plugs would be helpful.

[cornfedksboy]

What's your total budget? You need more receiver. If you want 5 channels and no amp, get 7 channels. The last two channels of an amp really drag the reported watts down (maybe 50-60%). You don't want to use all the channels. I would suggest an Onkyo TX-nr808 or 709 for roughly $500. Great HT and flexability for additional amps at a later time if you so desire.

If you really want to "feel" the music, invest significantly in a sub! $400-1000. should do the trick (though it won't be Klipsch). Recommendations can be made with a firm budget.

As for speakers, most go Reference, but there's nothing wrong with the Synergy. You can save some more money if you are patient. Also, you might consider the Icon Ws. You can get a 5 channel for about $1200.00 to include two WF-35s, a WC-24, and 2 WS-24s. You could also get two RF-62 IIs, an RC-62 II, and two RS-52 IIs for under $2000.00. This is all highly subjective and open to opinion.

As for cables, go to monoprice.com. They are high quality at a fraction of the price.

[derrickdj1]

The F 20 may work in your system and leave a little extra money to go for a sub or Pioneer avr. I like the Pioneer's because power is not an issue and the autocalibration is excellent for room correction. For HT a good sub is a must to enjoy the bangs and explosions. It will also make music listening more enjoyable. Since center channel dialogue is a problem in a lot of HT, I think the F 20 may work better due to slightly lower volume in your front stage . Symmetry and balance is the key to a good HT. Good luck and enjoy the tweek and experimentation to get the sound that please you.

[sebmc]

I want to keep the system under $2500, with cables and everything. I would be willing to go up to $3000 if what I was getting was worth the extra money, but if I was getting a system I will be happy with, the less money I have to spend the better. Next weekend I am going to spend some time in the local speaker shop and test out every klipsch speaker they have to get a better idea about what I want. What subs would you recommend, and should I set up two subs like others have suggested? Why would a 7 channel receiver be better than a 5

[cornfedksboy]

I want to keep the system under $2500, with cables and everything.

Very good! Plan on spending 30% +/- 5%, or about $700.00 on components and cables. That would be a $500.00 a/vR, $100.00 BRD player, and $100.00 on interconnects. That leaves $1800.00 for 5 speakers and a sub. Here's some options:

See receivers from Denon, Onkyo, Marantz: http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/AVReceiver/Home-Audio/Home-Theater-Receivers/2.html We can help you narrow your choice later, but you can see here that many $1000.00 receivers can be had for under $500.00. Things like network capability and iPod connectivity need to be heavily scrutinized for individual needs.

A nice Blu-Ray player from Best Buy would likely do the trick. I got a great LG at Wal-Mart for $140.00.

As for speakers, you might consider purchasing on-line. http://www.acousticsounddesign.com/klipsch-speakers/Klipsch-Home-Theater-Systems.cfm In addition to their on-line deals, if you call them direct, you can often get a better price and/or have them remove the free whatever so that you can better customize your system. Here's the Icon Ws; http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=Klipsch+Icon You can get them even cheaper if you are patient. They have great sales every weekend.

http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp should be used for your interconnects. Just take a look at their HDMI cables for an example of the hundreds of dollars you can save versus even Wal-Mart.

Here's a great 12" sub: http://emotiva.com/ultra_sub12.shtm Subs are relatively easy to make, and because they only play the lowest frequencies, they don't have a "tonal" signature. Because of this, you don't need to purchase same brand. Nothing wrong with Klipsch subs, it's just that because they are not internet direct, you pay double for the same performance.

[cornfedksboy]

Next weekend I am going to spend some time in the local speaker shop and test out every klipsch speaker they have to get a better idea about what I want.

Great idea!

Why would a 7 channel receiver be better than a 5

Basically, all of the mass-market receivers (except Harman Kardon) post specs with "funny numbers." The specs are based on 2 channels driven until the speakers clip (which can ruin your speakers). As additional amps are added internally, the receiver has to do more work and power draw becomes an issue causing the whole system to perform at a lower level. This is most notable in the audio as it requires the most power. As an example, let's say that receiver X has a power rating of 100 wpc and is a 7.1 channel receiver. When you add a center, that power drops to about 90 wpc. Two surrounds drop it to maybe 70 wpc. Now, use all 7 channels and you only get 25 watts per channel!!! This becomes an issue as you need a high degree of "headroom" above and beyond your normal listening volume. Any time a BIG action scene comes up, more power is demanded and frankly, your receivers fall flat. This is espescially true in the low end of a Klipsch speaker (thankfully Klipsch top-end is horn loaded so you are usually okay there). No low end = disapointment at the height of action. This same phenomenon is true of 5 channel receivers. Maybe only 20-30% of stated power is available with all 5 channels driven. There are exceptions to this, but not under $1000.00.

This is also why a receiver with pre-amps is recommended. Let's say that next year you decide to add two rear channels. Now, even though you've increased the number of speakers that are playing, you've actually decreased the amound of sound you are getting from your system. A way to remedy this is to bypass the receivers front two amps and use a stronger (or equal) amplifier to run your power hungry front speakers. The other 5 channels are now running at 70% capacity, which is more than adequate for surrounds and rears as they don't generally have the big dynamic swings that are common in the front towers.

There's alot more to it than that, but just know that you want roughly 100 watts per channel (stated manufacturer rating) with 2 channels not in operation and the ability to add an amp in the future if you are so inclined.

[StephenM]

Any time a BIG action scene comes up, more power is demanded and frankly, your receivers fall flat. This is espescially true in the low end of a Klipsch speaker (thankfully Klipsch top-end is horn loaded so you are usually okay there).

Actually even on the low end, many Klipsch speakers are rather sensitive.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/klipsch-rb-81-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

RB-81 - 91-90dB @ 100-60Hz w/ 2.83V @ 1 meter

http://www.hometheater.com/content/klipsch-reference-rf-83-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

RF-83 - 95dB @ 100Hz-50Hz w/ 2.83V @ 1 meter

http://www.hometheater.com/content/klipsch-reference-rb-75-ht-labs-measures

RB-75 - 93-95dB @ 100Hz-60Hz w/ 2.83V @ 1 meter

Mind you these are quasi-anechoic measurements. Moving these speakers into a real room will boost those numbers further; most estimates I've seen (from Klipsch and also on an Axiom Audio writeup) indicate a boost of about 4dB going from anechoic to in room. Further, per each of the pages, the RB-81, RF-83, and RB-75 do not dip below 3.5 ohms, indicating they shouldn't be overly onerous to drive. With this information, along with your volume requirements and the distance you sit from your speakers, you can get a rough idea of how much power you need.

[cornfedksboy]

Stephen, I know you like to talk about numbers. That's great! I think this thread is about what to look for in a receiver to drive a 5.1 HT for $2500.00. The OP stated he didn't know much about receivers and wanted some additional info on what he needs to drive Synergy speakers. Maybe (w/o posting graphs) you could recommend a receiver that would be a good choice for 5.1 HT F-30s?

[StephenM]

Being that I like Onkyo, and with a nod to his budget, I'd probably suggest an 808 or 709. If he wants to juice up his setup further later, he can easily add a 2 or 5 channel amp later.

[cornfedksboy]

Being that I like Onkyo, and with a nod to his budget, I'd probably suggest an 808 or 709. If he wants to juice up his setup further later, he can easily add a 2 or 5 channel amp later.

[Y]

[sebmc]

What should I pay for one of those receivers and are the factory refurbished ones any good?

[StephenM]

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR709/Onkyo-TX-NR709-7.2-Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR808/Onkyo-TX-NR808-7.2-Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

A4L is an Onkyo authorized dealer for factory refurbished models. Up to you as to whether factory refurb bothers you or not, but A4L offers a 5 year extended warranty on either of the above for $50 bucks. I personally didn't bother with the extension, but I suppose time will tell if that decision will come to bite me in the butt or not.

[sebmc]

Would a good 7.1 receiver putting out at least 100 watts per channel be able to power any klipsch series I decided to go with? I am looking at the Synergy or Reference series systems. I might order a receiver before I decide on speakers so I can get my room wired and ready.

[StephenM]

Something like an Onkyo 808 should do a fairly competent job with anything you're likely to get, although even with that it's possible you may desire more power.

[Youthman]

If you look at the Sensitivity rating on each Klipsch speaker, you will find that most of them are in the mid to high 90's, some higher end Klipsch models bumping over 100db in sensitivity. This means feeding them 1 watt with a mic at 1 meter, the speaker yields that particular db (volume). What this translates to is the ability to drive Klipsch speakers even with lower wattage. I had a Harman Kardon AVR55 (55 watts/ch) pushing my RF-83's with an RC-7 and it sounded great. Only when I REALLY cranked it did it sound harsh and like it was running out of gas. More power will allow you to drive your speakers easier and less likeliness to cause them to clip (distort).

One word of caution is that MOST manufacturers fib on their numbers. My previous Yamaha RX-V1800 was rated at 140 x 7. Third party bench test (major A/V Magazing) revealed the Yammie was 140 x 2, 90 x 5 and a whopping 55 x 7. If you do add 7 speakers, you will have to really push that amp to reach near reference levels.

My advice is get a good receiver within your budget and make sure it has preouts. This will allow you to add an amp later down the road if you need additional power. You could even get a 3 channel amp and drive the front three speakers and let the receiver power the surrounds. Lots of options there without having to buy a super expensive 7 channel amp.

I personally try not to spend more than $500 on a receiver since technology changes way too fast. You will lose a ton of money if you are always buying latest/gratest.

Lastly, your ears will not be able to hear the difference between 100 watts per channel and say 130 watts per channel. You have to double the wattage to achieve a 3db gain in volume.

[sebmc]

If I decide I want more power how easy is it to add an amp? I will assume the Onkyo receivers you suggested are ready to have an amp added but I have never worked with one. Is an HT amplifier similar to a car stereo amp, or are they completely different things?

[JasonJCarney]

HT amps are super easy. Just plug a set of RCA cables into the preout on the rear of the AVR then plug it into the RCA input on the amp. Run the speaker wire from the binding posts on the back of the amp and presto your done. Just make sure you buy an AVR with preouts. Very simple.