Audible Nectar Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 OK, Beta testing is complete on "The Beast", so, time to fill you in (as promised) on the gory details of the JBL 4638 bass bins. There was a significant learning curve involved with setting them up and tweaking them (especially with the EQ), but the effort has been well worth it. Well? Were those JBL's worth the risk of buying without seeing, trying to use pro gear in a home application, and lack of percieved low end? OHHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHH!! So here it is, forum members - "The Beast" that I've been assembling Klipsch Cornwall II's (mains) Klipsch Academy (center channel) Klipsch Chorus (surrounds) Outlaw 750 Amplifier (5x165) H/K AVR 75 (used as pre/pro - will be upgraded soon) Bass Kit: 2 JBL 4638 LFE/Bass Reinforcement cabinets Crown CE 1000 amplifier Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Bass EQ) Sources: Pioneer DV-333 2 Aiwa ADF-850 3 head cassette decks General Instruments cable box Panasonic VHS PV-4459 Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe (computer sound) First, the motivation for my purchase: I have spent the last 8 months on this board planning my "do-it-all" system - one that will do justice to both HT and 2 channel listening. Thanks to the knowledge of this forum (and those forum members who sold me my Klipsch) I've put together that system, piece by piece. However, I stumbled a bit with my initial subwoofer purchase. Originally, I purchased the Velodyne CT-150 subwoofer for my system. The Velo is a good sub for the $449 pricetag - however, Klipsch Cornwalls are tough to keep up with, especially at or near reference levels. Additionally, the Velodyne was simply not tight enough - it tended to "boom" and linger after the sound from the Cornwalls had dissipated. I was learning - fast. I made the mistake of underpurchasing here - the Cornwalls deserved better, but my wallet was shaking at the prospect of a $2000 hit for the big league subs that the forum members use on their big Klipsch systems (Velo HGS, SVS, REL, etc). So, naturally, I was in a pickle - I was dissatisfied with my current sub, but was likely going to live with it, since the budget was not available for those big home subs. Enter Tom Brennan and his JBL tent sale posts. Now, I know TB doesn't mess around with his audio. If those JBL's were good enough to reinforce his Altecs, they could certainly help out my Cornwalls. I was skeptical, and began searching for info on how to set up passive subs, and to deal with such issues as equalization and crossover issues, and integrating such cabinets into my HT. It took 3 months to convince myself to "take the leap" - thanks to the other forum members who did so, with good reported results. ****** ENTER THE BFD ****** So, how was I to control those huge, high output JBL's in a home environment?? The answer lies in a unit known as the Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD). It's intended use is for live applications - to prevent microphone feedback in pro setups. However, the BFD also has some nifty parametric EQ features as well, for the low price of $169. Add the appropriate amp to drive them (I selected the Crown CE 1000) and your set to go. The BFD has a "learning curve" - it takes time to learn to use it properly. Hooking it up is no problem - just insert it between the sub out and sub amplifier. It gives pinpoint control of center frequency and bandwidth of the filter, to flatten those peaks and valleys. 24 filters can be selected - enough bands to tackle the most difficult of room responses. This unit is most effective - I have achieved FLAT response on my system from 28-150 hz, +- 1.5 db!!! And that's working around a 100hz fixed sub crossover in my H/K receiver! Only -4 down at 25 hz. I gave the JBL's a 6db boost in the 30hz area, which maximizes the low end output, to get that flat response to 28 hz. In addition to other adjustments, I was able to cut some near the 100 hz crossover point in the H/K, to get that flat response as well. Once the BFD is set up properly (using the trusty SPL meter it took 6 hours), I'm ready to do some listening tests with program material. These woofers are tight!!!!! They smack you upside the head and reload quickly - the closest bass performance to horns you can get, without having true horn loaded bass. The woofers barely look to be "moving" when playing - a testament to just how effortless they play. In my home, the JBL's are on "permanent vacation" - hardly working to do what I need them to do. On movies - whoa - it's like real life. No lingering "boom", only what the sound mixer intended. Quick, high impact bass. I was convinced in 2 minutes of listening to Episode I - Phantom Menace, that this was the right thing to do. I also listened to "The Last Waltz" and several other DVD's and found the results to be excellent, on both music and movie material. On maximum output: These woofers can get you arrested!!! This is no joke - they are capable of 120db output, enough to knock the pictures off of the walls. I went outside to find out how that type of output carries outside my house - and it's not good (at least for the neighbors). However, it is rare, if ever, that I need that much SPL - but it's nice to know that it's there. Extra is good The down side (besides their size, of course): They are not 16 hz bottom feeders. However, they are excellent in the range that is stated (flat from 28 hz on up with my adjustments) - very accurate, very snappy, very loud. I would rather have clean, tight bass than otherwise - even if sacrificing a bit of low end. In short, a raging success. ------------------ Klipsch Cornwall II's (mains) Klipsch Academy (center channel) Klipsch Chorus (surrounds) Outlaw 750 Amplifier (5x165) H/K AVR 75 (used as pre/pro - will be upgraded soon) Bass Kit: 2 JBL 4638 LFE/Bass Reinforcement cabinets Crown CE 1000 amplifier Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Bass EQ) Sources: Pioneer DV-333 2 Aiwa ADF-850 3 head cassette decks General Instruments cable box Panasonic VHS PV-4459 Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe (computer sound) f> c> s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote: In my home, the JBL's are on "permanent vacation" - hardly working to do what I need them to do. I Know EXACTLY what you are talking about!!! My 4648A-8 is too on vacation! It has been spared the grusone and short life of a cinema speaker and is now loved and admired in plain sight by ALL who enter my home. It is one happy sub. Questions: -How much juice do yuo dump into your JBL? I have a 180 amp and it is JUST ok. -I have seen the Behringer Feedback Destroyer in my Full Compass cataloug, tell me more. I want a pro amp and will need an EQ. Is there anything else i should consider getting, or is the Behr the best for the job (UNDER $250) -Also, what amp you you have gotten instead of the Crown if you has the choice? If you like it, is there anything else I should know? Oh, get you arrested, CERTAINLY! I have 50+ feet to the neighbors, and they know I have a monster living in my house, and thats with 180 watts! Enjoy, I have not regreted buying the sub for one second in the last 4 months. Now, where can I get some La Scala's. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 The Crown is rated at 260WPC at 8 ohms, 400 or so at 4. Each channel of the amp is hooked up to a JBL cabinet. These are available at reasonable prices - I paid $350 for the Crown and the BFD together (used, but not abused). I would like a bigger/cleaner amp - one with good bass control - if I were to upgrade I would go with something like a Bryston 4B at minimum (or strap 2 as mono). The Crown does a good job, though. I've got $800 invested in the bass kit, and it smokes! If you are into high SPL listening, you could go a bit bigger on the Crown, with the CE 2000. That's plenty for the JBL's. The Crowns are sensitive to hum - more so than my other gear, so your electrical setup is hopefully ground loop free. Under $250, the BFD is the hands down winner for a sub EQ. I also looked at the Rane PE-17 ($400) which is good for the job, too. For the full scoop on using the BFD with passive subs, go here: BFD Info Link One reading will not be sufficient (nor will two or three) unless you really know sound and pro audio. I learned from the info on that page - it was really helpful in setting up my subs. Also, go to hometheaterforum.com and run a search on the BFD (and pay particular attention to any advice given by Wayne Pflughaupt - that fella knows his stuff). There's loads of info on bass EQ with the BFD, setting up house curves, and so on. All the specifics on using the BFD are in those two places. The BFD is difficult to use for novices - I can see people getting frustrated with it easily (the Rane is much easier to use). Once you catch on to it though, the BFD is very flexible, and can flatten the most challenging peaks and valleys, if used properly. When I did my first measurements with the test tones, I thought I was in serious trouble - but I got the flat curve in nearly 6 hours of experimenting and tweaking. ------------------ Klipsch Cornwall II's (mains) Klipsch Academy (center channel) Klipsch Chorus (surrounds) Outlaw 750 Amplifier (5x165) H/K AVR 75 (used as pre/pro - will be upgraded soon) Bass Kit: 2 JBL 4638 LFE/Bass Reinforcement cabinets Crown CE 1000 amplifier Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Bass EQ) Sources: Pioneer DV-333 2 Aiwa ADF-850 3 head cassette decks General Instruments cable box Panasonic VHS PV-4459 Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe (computer sound) f> c> s> This message has been edited by dndphishin on 05-10-2002 at 08:15 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 WOW! Thanks, thats great info! I have looked at the CE2000, very nice, maybe a little cheapie, though. I was in a position to steal one (literally) but my conceous won and I left it. I don't steal. Anyway, tell me more about the Rane if you know anything. thanks! ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 10, 2002 Author Share Posted May 10, 2002 KRB: Go here or here for the scoop on the Rane PE 17. Yeah, the Crown looks cheapie, until you pick it up. They are rugged, and industrial looking (it will match the "motif" along with the JBL's). There are certainly better amps out there, but the Crowns aren't much different than a Samson, for instance - pro amps are well suited for bass use. If I had the $$$, I would look at Bryston - also, Crest amps have an excellent rep for pro audio amps too. Big and clean is desirable. ------------------ Klipsch Cornwall II's (mains) Klipsch Academy (center channel) Klipsch Chorus (surrounds) Outlaw 750 Amplifier (5x165) H/K AVR 75 (used as pre/pro - will be upgraded soon) Bass Kit: 2 JBL 4638 LFE/Bass Reinforcement cabinets Crown CE 1000 amplifier Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Bass EQ) Sources: Pioneer DV-333 2 Aiwa ADF-850 3 head cassette decks General Instruments cable box Panasonic VHS PV-4459 Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe (computer sound) f> c> s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 I know what you mean about heavy! Even the "ultra-light" toring gear makes the most expensive home gear look like toys (which is true, actually!) Yeah, Bryston would be nice, but way too expensive, and I think it is TOO good for pro gear! I think a nice Crown would be nice. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Johnson Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 Hello-I'm new to this, please bear with me, but can anyone give me the web address where I can see the JBL subwoofer? I am currently listening to a beautiful pair of LaScallas that I have owned since 1980. Thanks. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space_cowboy Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 Sgt. - I was just at the website and didn't see them listed They may have finally sold out, but they have a AEI-SUB1 listed. I know absolutely nothing about that one. http://www.jblpro.com/Tent_Sale/sale_items.htm ------------------ Turntable - Pro-Ject 2.0 Phono Preamp - Parasound PPH-100 Receiver - H/K AVR-210 DVD - Sony DVP-S360 TV - RCA 31" Mains - KLF-20 Center - KLF-C7 Surrounds - Optimus Pro LX-10 (LOL, soon to be replaced) Sub - Yamaha YST-SW160 Reinforcement - JBL 4638 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 12, 2002 Author Share Posted May 12, 2002 Yes, it looks like they are sold out. They sold quite a few - over 300 of the 4638, and a similar number of the 4648 too. You might check back at JBL periodically, they do add stuff over there at the tent sale from time to time - however, the party may be over on these. Some are showing up on ebay, though. ------------------ Klipsch Cornwall II's (mains) Klipsch Academy (center channel) Klipsch Chorus (surrounds) Outlaw 750 Amplifier (5x165) H/K AVR 75 (used as pre/pro - will be upgraded soon) Bass Kit: 2 JBL 4638 LFE/Bass Reinforcement cabinets Crown CE 1000 amplifier Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Bass EQ) Sources: Pioneer DV-333 2 Aiwa ADF-850 3 head cassette decks General Instruments cable box Panasonic VHS PV-4459 Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe (computer sound) f> c> s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 JBL will probably be disposing of crap right now. I doubt anything good will pop up in the near future. The 4638, 4648A-8 was ONLY there because they couldn't sell them due to NO demand. The rest of the company is doing quite well, as one of the JBL guys told me. I want some of those BIG touring speakers in my house! ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chipp4 Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Hey dndphishin, So are you getting some hum and buzz with the crown/HK setup? Currently I have 2 JBL 4638's hooked to a Denon 4800/Yamaha P3500 amp and I am getting some hum and buzz. I have another 4638 that has been setup with the 2380/2445 horn and a DOD electronic crossover and experimenting with this my hum and buzz gets much louder since its no longer below 80Hz. I believe I need an RCA unbalanced input to XLR balanced output coverter and maybe it will fix this. Or Lexicons new MC12 processor (but way out of my price range now). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 13, 2002 Author Share Posted May 13, 2002 Chip: I do have some hum in the subs - but I have much less than I did before. It's very faint now - I cannot hear it from the listening position, but a bit of it is there. I'm still tweaking this, and trying to improve it. It is important to thoroughly check your electrical setup to eliminate ground loop problems. My Crown amp seems to be extremely sensitive to ground loop hum. The JBL's display that hum well also, so proper and thorough inspection of the electrical system is necessary to get rid of the ground loops. I am currently running a split single ended RCA out to 1/4" adapters into my BFD (EQ) and out of the BFD as XLR, into the amp. Could this be the source of the rest of my hum problem?? The BFD has a switch to match its output level to home gear (unbalanced), so the signal level seems proper - but I wonder about the switchover from unbalanced into balanced cables is causing a problem. If I connect the output of the BFD as 1/4" also, instead of the XLR, there's no change in hum. I use the XLR cables because the Crown's 1/4" input connections aren't the best (the 1/4" plugs seem to wiggle just loose enough to be a problem, with the sub vibrating the amp housing, although the amp isn't that close to the cabinet). So, I switched to the XLR's - the vibration/input problem is solved, but still a bit of hum. KRB: I'm trying to determine to what degree a better amp will help my subs. The Crown CE series is more of a DJ amp than some higher end pro gear - even in the Crown line. I'm also looking at Crest Audio (CA series or pro line) amps as well. I find that the Crown/JBL is good for movies, but I think a better amp will make that extra bit of difference for 2 channel duty. I need a bit more headroom and clarity from the amp - if for no other reason, to ensure that the power is always clean. One more note about the Crown: If you clip it, there's no output protection on the CE series at all, so your voice coils will get all of that distorted power. If you make a mistake, you will roast those woofers quick. The Crown won't hold back, so be careful!! ------------------ Klipsch Cornwall II's (mains) Klipsch Academy (center channel) Klipsch Chorus (surrounds) Outlaw 750 Amplifier (5x165) H/K AVR 75 (used as pre/pro - will be upgraded soon) Bass Kit: 2 JBL 4638 LFE/Bass Reinforcement cabinets Crown CE 1000 amplifier Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Bass EQ) Sources: Pioneer DV-333 2 Aiwa ADF-850 3 head cassette decks General Instruments cable box Panasonic VHS PV-4459 Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe (computer sound) f> c> s> This message has been edited by dndphishin on 05-13-2002 at 10:04 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Thanks for the thorough review dndphishin. In regards to the "down side" of these speakers, do you notice their lack of deep bass? I realize these things won't go as low as a true sub, but my gut feeling has been that they will go low enough, and will probably be adequate for my tastes (the reason I finally decided to get them). Maybe it's just me, but I really don't care to get bass so low you can only feel it, but not hear it. I have already received mine, but won't be able to put them to use for a while, so I am still interested in hearing about other's opinions such as the review you provided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 13, 2002 Author Share Posted May 13, 2002 JMON - well, yes and no. I will preface this statement by saying that I have not owned any of the true "bottom feeders" like the SVS or the Velo HGS, but they do play deep. I've heard such units as the Klipsch RSW 15 and the Carver signature subs (which are good subs in their own right) - but I think these JBL's are a better match for my Klipsch, due to the snappy quick and highly efficient woofers. Before I installed the BFD, the JBL's were good, but the low end rolloff was obvious. With the BFD (6db boost at 30 hz - suggested by Tom Brennan, and some other EQ adjustments to flatten the peaks and integrate them with the rest of the system) the JBL's snapped right into place - it was like an out of focus SLR camera suddenly showing a clean, crisp image. I had a Velodyne CT150 previous to this (which is supposed to have good output to 25 hz, and some output to 20 hz) and these blow it away, in every area. It is better IMO, to have true, flat, tight bass to 25hz than more peaky models that aren't as true, even if they do extend lower. Specs on subs are like specs on other speakers - they will tell you little about how they will actually sound. This was the Low Frequency "steal of a lifetime", as far as I'm concerned. Now that I hear the results, I'm very glad that I did it. Getting the most out of them requires some tweaking (what good audio gear doesn't anyway) - but has proven to be very worthwhile. The EQ is key to maximizing their performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danartdis Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 dnd, I agree with your assessment of the clarity or "tightness" of this baby. I am intrigued by the idea of getting a BFD to improve the sound even more. Although I am pretty darn pleased with how it sounds with the cheapie PE amp. Sgt. Johnson, It stinks that JBL is all out but we will keep an eye on Ebay for you. Dan ------------------ Danartdis system HK AVR 500 Heresy mains Heresy rears Academy center JBL 4238 "sub"woofer PE 250 watt sub amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Thanks dndphishin, very good feedback. It seems like I will want to get some eq as well. I haven't decided how I'm going to power them yet, but I've got some time to work that out. I also know that if needed, there should be some tweaks that can make them go even lower. I'll have to investigate that as I get closer. However, I may decide it's not even necessary. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieTuna Posted May 20, 2002 Share Posted May 20, 2002 Can someone describe how you have the Beringer Feedback Destroyer hooked up? Thank CT ------------------ ===================================== Charlie Tuna's A/V rig: Front mains Klipsch Forte IIs Front center Klipsch KLF-C7 sub/woofer JBL 4638 cabinet Front effects Klipsch Quintets Rears Klipsch Quartets TV Pioneer SD-P4565 rear projection Power Monster HTS 500 MKII A/V Amp Yamaha DSP-A1 CD Nakamichi CDC-300 (200 cd changer) DVD/CD Toshiba SD-3109 VCR Panasonic HI-FI model CATV TWC Digital Cable/cable modem Speaker wire Monster OMC 12G Interconnects Monster MVSV3 Super Video/MB300SW Bass/ILS200 lightspeed/Interlink 400 MKII/MV2R RCA A/V rack Studio Tech, Inc. Model PS-6 B/B Pioneer SX-255R Receiver to power patio speakers, Boston Acoustics Voyagers You can tune a radio, but you can't tuna fish! ===================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 20, 2002 Author Share Posted May 20, 2002 CharlieTuna, look above in this thread at the first post I made on 5-13. This message has been edited by dndphishin on 05-20-2002 at 02:21 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danartdis Posted May 20, 2002 Share Posted May 20, 2002 dnd, How much was the BFD and in addition to the BFD and the Rane, what others are you aware of that can do the job inexpensively? Thanks Dan ------------------ Danartdis system HK AVR 500 Heresy mains Heresy rears Academy center JBL 4638"sub"woofer PE 250 watt sub amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 20, 2002 Author Share Posted May 20, 2002 The BFD (listed as model 1124) is about $179, but can be had online for as low as $139. The BFD sells out often, so you may need to look a bit. The Rane runs $399. These are the two most available and inexpensive options that I am aware of. Parametric units tend to be expensive. I do know that AudioControl makes these units too. The BFD is a steal for what it does - but is a bit challenging to learn to use. That said, it is highly flexible and capable, once mastered by the user. ------------------ Klipsch Cornwall II's (mains) Klipsch Academy (center channel) Klipsch Chorus (surrounds) Outlaw 750 Amplifier (5x165) H/K AVR 75 (used as pre/pro - will be upgraded soon) Bass Kit: 2 JBL 4638 LFE/Bass Reinforcement cabinets Crown CE 1000 amplifier Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Bass EQ) Sources: Pioneer DV-333 2 Aiwa ADF-850 3 head cassette decks General Instruments cable box Panasonic VHS PV-4459 Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe (computer sound) f> c> s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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