Tame the RF 3s with a Marantz or new speaker time?

[Klipschtastic]

So I've had my Rf3s for 10 years now using them for both home theater and music. I always liked the clarity and range but at times they are harsh, especially now that these speakers have been moved to the living room for music only. I am using an old Denon dra 300 receiver circa 1981 with 35 watts per channel. I don't know if those Denons are supposed to be warm like the new ones but I really don't enjoy extended listening on this system. The highs are just to searing at times.

I don't mean to completely throw the Rf3s under the bus though, the base is tight and articulate and on some recordings the horns are fine. If I could just dail the highs back and warm things up alittle I would probably be happy. Simply dailing back the treble doesn't really work. Below -2 db the highs get too dull and the rift between the bass and the upper mids seems to grow.

So how much does a different receiver like the Marantz 4023 actually make on the RFs? Does anyone have an experience to share?

Thanks

Jon

[Dylanl]

Time for a new pair. I had both rf3 an 7 and was never able to get them to sound great. The best however was with tube monoblocks but not sure if you want to run those in a HT setup.

[willland]

Klipschtastic,

Welcome to the forum and Happy Thanksgiving.

You may want to consider a B&K amp. I have used them with Reference towers for a couple of years and really enjoy the warmness that really does tame the highs while providing plenty of punch down low and a midrange to die for. Maybe consider a mid level receiver and use it as a pre/pro to go with it.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR708/Onkyo-TX-NR708-7.2-Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

with

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1326426210&/B-K-Reference-125.2-S2-solid-s

or this if you want your front soundstage to have the same amplification

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1326418867&/B-K-Components-Reference-4430-

I have this same 3-channel and it has served me very well.

Bill

[moray james]

It is interesting that you look to your speakers first. What about the quality of your source and your amp, interconnects and powercords can also have significant impact on the finer points of your systems sound. If you must look to the speaker then why not consider rebuilding the crossover with top quality parts? Below is a link which you might find interesting. I have listened to your speakers on a very nice little SET EL34 amp with an assortment of sources and they were never harsh. You caps are getting old so if you are looking for the cheap fast fix contact Bob Crites and get new ones from him or have him do the job and send them back to tested and ready to go. The caps Bob will sell you will be better than the stock units by a good margin. Any of these suggestions will be less expensive than new speakers. Keep in mind that old computer saying about junk in junk out.Good luck best regards Moray James.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=288022

[moray james]

There is something else you might try if you are really just needing a small high frequncy adjustment and it won`t cost much plus some time to experiment. Get either some high densith fiberglass of the kind used for flexie ceiling tiles which is 5/8 inch thick and try out a thin wedge about 3/16 of an inch thick and a 1/2 inch long cut to fit into the throat of your horn as a divider try then horizontal and vertical to see which way you like best. This will eat up just a litte high frequency and may get you where you want to be. The second option is another hardware store fix, find some 30 to 40 ppi open cell foam as used in humidifier rolls. Cut a small block and taper it so it is just big enough to wedge into place in the throat of your horn that should also work. If you try to wedge a square block into the throat you will compress too much of the foam and it will only act to plug the throat off which is not what you want. In a pinch you could also try a cotton ball or two just to get an idea. If you are only looking for a small adjustment either of these techniques may do what you want and have you happy again.

Your caps in your RF3`s are at least ten years old and are drifting by now some and would benefit from replacement with better film and foil capacitors. How old are the caps in your electronics? Remember that none of these caps were even close to sota quality even when new and they are all much older now. I would guess your electronics are much older than your speakers. If you loved the speakers when you got them then chances are your electronics are more to blame for what you are hearing than the caps in your speakers. Cheaper to upgrade the caps in your speakers than your amps. Cheaper to replace your electronics with new and better units if they are in the twenty year vintage. Good luck have fun and don`t eat too much turkey. Best regards Moray James.

[Dennie]

You mentioned that the speakers have been recently moved. Is the room treated at all. Carpet? Wall Hangings? Etc..?

The room can make a huge difference in the sound. I also agree that it may be time to update the crossover's, electronics's.

Keep us posted,

Dennie

[Rick]

A new receiver with Audyssey room correction software just may work wonders for you. My last surround receiver before I dismantled my home theater, a Denon AVR-3310ci, did an excellent job of room correction/equalization for me. I was never a believer in such systems having used Pioneer's MCACC and Yamaha's YPAO in the past, but Audyssey worked great for me. Like Dennie said since you moved them, it could have to do with room acoustics. I find it hard to believe that speakers that are only 10 years old would need the crossovers refreshed already?

[Rick]

After reading your post again, I guess you are only interested in a 2 channel rig, correct?

[Dennie]

So I've had my Rf3s for 10 years now using them for both home theater and music.

Thanks

Jon

Hey Rick, he said he's had them for 10 Years now. We know they are at least that old.

Dennie

[Klipschtastic]

Hey guys. This forum is great and I appreciate all of the thoughful responses. I bought the speakers new in 1999 or 2000 I believe so they are roughlly 12 years old. They were used heavily and played loudly mostly between 99-2002 when I lived in a house. I then moved to an apartment and used them only lightly and never very loud untill a few months ago when a moved into a house where I am again free to crank them. I'm guessing both age and use are factors in degrading the internals. I really don't want to go through the expense and hassle of buying new speakers and selling these on ebay, besides I like a lot of things about these speakers. The efficiency, tight bass response, dynamics, lively sound and soundstage to name a few. My only beef is with the upper frequencies at times being harsh and fatiguing. The room acoustics are definatly less than flattering, a big living room, approximatly 22x 18 with dining room off to the side perpendicular to the speakers' projection path.

I'll try the cotton ball treatment first and see what it does.

To Mooray james, I looked on the Bob Crites website and saw capacitors for a lot of speakers but not the RF3.

My old Denon is now getting interference or crosstalk from the radio that can be heard at low levels during mellow spots in cd playback as well as a low ambient hum so its time for a replacement.

My stepfather who is a big stereo buff offered to buy me a new receiver for Christmas and I'm looking at the Onkyo 8050 or the Marantz 4023.

I know the AVR my be a better value but really like having a dedicated 2 channel set up in the living room with simple controls.

I have read things stating that marantz has a warmer quality and i have read others that say with new receivers these days the difference isn't noticable and they are basing this bias on the Marantz of old.

What do you all think?

[moray james]

send Bob an email or better yet a phone call, Bob is you man for all things Klipsch. Have you tried out the damping yet? Best regards Moray James.

[Klipschtastic]

I just tried out the cotton balls and they defenatly had a positive effect on "mellowing out" the highs for lack of a better audiophilic vocab. I will hit the hrdware store to get some of the other materials mentioned. Has anyone tried placing an extra layer of cloth, perhaps a thick speaker grill mesh or even t-shirt for that matter to slightly weil the highs?

[Ski Bum]

From the sounds of this thread, it's time to replace both.

You are presently dissatisfied with your Klipsch, but explicitly state there are things about them you like. Indeed, they perform so well in some aspects that very few other speakers can match (high sensitivity, low distortion). While attempting the inexpensive suggestions so far (cotton, open cell foam plugs a la Gedlee), you should start your search for used Heritage. It may take a while for the right speaker for you to appear on the used market, so be patient.

Someone in Ohio just posted a beautiful pair of oiled walnut forte II in the classifieds section, and those would put your current speakers to shame. If you happen to be in Ohio, I would suggest you go check them out.

[moray james]

Good for you glad you saw some improvement it`s practically free. Keep playing if for no other reason than the excercise is an excellent way to learn to listen to identify the issues that you have.

I agree with Skibum in that I to think that you would be happier with an extended Heritage or KLF or CF speaker but don`t put the cart before the horse. How old are your electronics? Did you love the combination of your RF3 and electronics 12 years ago? Your electronics are twelve years older now and are likely past there best before date. Hooking up different speakers will not make your electronics sound any younger or better. Deal with the major issue of your gear first then look to the speakers. The tweak may well bring you some relief while you look to a new amp or receiver,

I would not recommend a layer of fabric over the mouth of any horn, if the fiberglass or the horn don`t do it for you look to your electronics or re cap the speakers. Best regards Moray James.