Hello

[CMG]

For my first post I will try to be quick.

I recently purchased my first home theater system and if it wasn't for forums I would have ended up with a HTIB or Bose. So I purchased a set off newegg that consisted of an RC52ii, RF62 X 2, RS52ii X 2, SW310, and run by an Onkyo 709. I have been enjoying everything but I also have a few questions.

1) I did some reading that the RC62ii is an upgrade compared to the RC52ii. Has anyone had either speaker, and how do they compare?

2) Would an amp be worth the cost to make the system sound better? I was looking at the 3 and 5 channel by 200 watts, but I'm thinking it might be overkill. Is it overkill or would it help the system sound better?

Thanks for the help.

[cornfedksboy]

Welcome to the forum and congrats on the new system. The 62 is a big upgrade over the 52. In comparison, the 52 sounds flat and week. As to an amp...it may or may not improve sound, it depends on how you use your system. I'm sure someone will chime in and I will try and add more info later.

[Boxx]

Welcome to the Forum... More help will arrive soon...

[SuBXeRo]

the 62 II is an upgrade if you want to spend the money on it and it would match your rf-62 II's (you did get the 62 II's right?).

A power amp is a fantastic upgrade if you have the money for it and the means to connect it to your receiver or preamp pro. You have speakers worth of a power amp really, smaller ones like the hd500 series or even small bookshelfs dont necessarily need a power amp. Although they dont need it, they can always benefit from a far more refined piece of equipment in regards to quality power. You dont need 200 watts probably although the headroom is always a good thing to have on hand. When choosing an amp you need to take into consideration your listening space. How far is your listening position from your speakers? How sensitive are your speakers? (klipsch is great and tells you @ 1 watt @ 1 meter how loud it will be). But knowing the sensitivty and listening distance you can actually calculate a relative power draw that you need from an amp. You also need to consider your room attributes as they help or hinder your measurements but for the most part, just know your measurements will be off slightly.

The most help you receiver from a power amp is its ability to handle lower impedences as your speakers are dynamic and the impedence changes constantly as your media is played through it. The extra power also helps when playing lower frequencies especially when you have your towers on full range. As you can see, there are some benefits to it but its not for everyone. Its more equipment and it makes things a bit more complicated but its worth the extra trouble IMO. I had the emotiva xpa-5 and it was alot of power but then switched to a lesser powered amp from a different brand and even though i had an apples to oranges power loss of 75 watts, i dont even notice it. I enjoy my new amp more than the emotiva and it gets my rf-7's going to levels that are downright uncomfortable and more.

Klipsch lovers are fortunate that for the most part, their speakers are very efficient and dont require much power to get them to comofrtable levels. You will find most of us that have moved to separates have done so to help eliminate the possibility of clipping, have good overhead, get cleaner and more reliable power and or to give them added flexibility in their system. We also do it because a good power amp will outlive several processors/receivers over the years and is viewed as an....investment.

[derrickdj1]

A question for you, I read that a lot of avr's under $1000, MSP, do not handle the first one or two watts of power as well as a good power amp? They have more distorton in the first couple of watts, compared to a good amp, although they may perform better has the load increases. Therefore, when listenign at lower volume the sound will have more clarity. This is in addition to the increase headroom and handling dynamic swings in the source output. So, it is not just about how many watts you are pushing; since most Klipsch will work really well in the first few watts.

[SuBXeRo]

thats not something that i have read but that doesnt mean its not true. Some power amps actually have the first few watts as pure class A power. I have a marantz receiver and when my speakers are on low, i dont notice any differemce, same goes for my harman kardon and wb-14 pair up as my computer speakers. Both of these receivers are <$1000. Id be more apt to say its down to brand and more entry level receivers that might have this problem if at all.

[cornfedksboy]

the 62 II is an upgrade if you want to spend the money on it and it would match your rf-62 II's (you did get the 62 II's right?).

A power amp is a fantastic upgrade if you have the money for it and the means to connect it to your receiver or preamp pro. You have speakers worth of a power amp really, smaller ones like the hd500 series or even small bookshelfs dont necessarily need a power amp. Although they dont need it, they can always benefit from a far more refined piece of equipment in regards to quality power. You dont need 200 watts probably although the headroom is always a good thing to have on hand. When choosing an amp you need to take into consideration your listening space. How far is your listening position from your speakers? How sensitive are your speakers? (klipsch is great and tells you @ 1 watt @ 1 meter how loud it will be). But knowing the sensitivty and listening distance you can actually calculate a relative power draw that you need from an amp. You also need to consider your room attributes as they help or hinder your measurements but for the most part, just know your measurements will be off slightly.

The most help you receiver from a power amp is its ability to handle lower impedences as your speakers are dynamic and the impedence changes constantly as your media is played through it. The extra power also helps when playing lower frequencies especially when you have your towers on full range. As you can see, there are some benefits to it but its not for everyone. Its more equipment and it makes things a bit more complicated but its worth the extra trouble IMO. I had the emotiva xpa-5 and it was alot of power but then switched to a lesser powered amp from a different brand and even though i had an apples to oranges power loss of 75 watts, i dont even notice it. I enjoy my new amp more than the emotiva and it gets my rf-7's going to levels that are downright uncomfortable and more.

Klipsch lovers are fortunate that for the most part, their speakers are very efficient and dont require much power to get them to comofrtable levels. You will find most of us that have moved to separates have done so to help eliminate the possibility of clipping, have good overhead, get cleaner and more reliable power and or to give them added flexibility in their system. We also do it because a good power amp will outlive several processors/receivers over the years and is viewed as an....investment.

I agree with all of the above, but will add the following:

I use 125 watt Marantz Monoblock amps to power my RF-82s and RC-62 off of my Onkyo 708 AVR. This is in an accoustically enclosed 11 X 24 X 7.5 foot room and I sit about 14 foot from the front sound stage. My Onkyo then powers the sides and rears. When I listened, I felt that I heard a greater degree of clarity with the Marantz amps hooked up (even though I only went from a 110 watt to a 125 watt rated amp). This is what most (but not all) seperates oweners also hear. The quality of the sound is subjectively better with a seperate amp. The second thing that this does is provide additional power to all of my speakers. My Onkyo, while it has about 110 watts when powering 2 speakers, draws a ton of power, gets really hot, and only effectively sends out about 35 watts to each channel when 7 channels are running. By eliminating three amps (front left, front right, and center) from the Onkyo, the AVR cools down and more effectively produces about 75 watts per channel for the 2 side and 2 rear speakers. This is more than adequate for Klipsch speakers used in the surround setting.

After all of that, you should also know that I also own a 2 channel set-up. This set-up features two Klipsch WF-35s (roughly as efficient as the RF-62s, but without the extra bass) powered by a 35 year old Marantz integrated stereo. This is a tuner with analog connections and 2 38 watt amps. I sit 8 foot away in a 12 X 15 X 8 room. No sub, and I couldn't use any more power in that room without causing ear damage. For that arrangement, 20 watts per channel is more than adequate.

So, in the end, it's about application and the quality of the AVR. Your Onkyo will do a fine job for 5 channels, but if you ever go to seven, I'd consider a hybrid pre/pro using some seperate amps and some from the Onkyo. Also, if you are a true audiophile, you should know that you can get better sound by buying a higher quality amp to power your speakers. It's not necessarily more power you are looking for, just a more refined sound.

[cornfedksboy]

thats not something that i have read but that doesnt mean its not true. Some power amps actually have the first few watts as pure class A power. I have a marantz receiver and when my speakers are on low, i dont notice any differemce, same goes for my harman kardon and wb-14 pair up as my computer speakers. Both of these receivers are <$1000. Id be more apt to say its down to brand and more entry level receivers that might have this problem if at all.

I hadn't heard this either, but I have heard that it is the "first watt" that's important (as the first watt will get you to reference level with a pair of Klipsch speakers). To me, what that means is that if the amp is of "high quality" it will produce a seemless, full range of sound at the get go and will provide a more detailed sound to your source even at moderately low listening levels.

[t-man]

I use 125 watt Marantz Monoblock amps to power my RF-82s and RC-62 off of my Onkyo 708 AVR. This is in an accoustically enclosed 11 X 24 X 7.5 foot room and I sit about 14 foot from the front sound stage. My Onkyo then powers the sides and rears. When I listened, I felt that I heard a greater degree of clarity with the Marantz amps hooked up (even though I only went from a 110 watt to a 125 watt rated amp). This is what most (but not all) seperates oweners also hear. The quality of the sound is subjectively better with a seperate amp. The second thing that this does is provide additional power to all of my speakers. My Onkyo, while it has about 110 watts when powering 2 speakers, draws a ton of power, gets really hot, and only effectively sends out about 35 watts to each channel when 7 channels are running. By eliminating three amps (front left, front right, and center) from the Onkyo, the AVR cools down and more effectively produces about 75 watts per channel for the 2 side and 2 rear speakers. This is more than adequate for Klipsch speakers used in the surround setting.

I'm curious - I have a similar sized room/listening position. How are you crossing over your mains/sub integration? What about the sides/rears crossover setting? If you close them up more and send the low frequencies (80-100Hz) to the sub(s), can't you get a lot more headroom back from your AV receiver?

[CMG]

Thank you for the quick responses.

Yes the cener is a RC52ii
and the fronts are RF62ii. I guess I should clarify that the 62s are
the right size for performace and not getting me in trouble with huge
speakers from the misses. The center size is not a problem, since it
goes into the entertainment center. [] Would the difference in the
RC52ii Vs the RC62ii be something that I could only audition to tell the
difference? That question also goes for the amp.

The room is
about 24' x 18 x 7' but broken into 2 pieces. The listening area is
about 12' x 18 x 7'. The chairs are about 10' away from the front and
the couch is about 14' from the front. The RF62iis are about 6' apart
toed in.

The room is used 60% for movies and netflix, 25% games, and the rest for music. I have been buying more blurays and listening to the internet since I have found that the speakers show and sound bad when the incoming media is bad. But if i listen or watch TLOTR or a bluray with high quality media, WOW.

[cornfedksboy]

I'm curious - I have a similar sized room/listening position. How are you crossing over your mains/sub integration? What about the sides/rears crossover setting? If you close them up more and send the low frequencies (80-100Hz) to the sub(s), can't you get a lot more headroom back from your AV receiver?

The Audyssey program does a great job with setting the crossovers! My advice; play with the speaker placement to get it just right, then run Audyssey. After a couple of days of listening, tweak. Listen for a few days, tweak again.

I believe I have my fronts (82s) set at 50, Rears (RF-25s; older equivalent to the RF-62s) set at 60, center (RC-62) set at 70, and surounds (RS-52 IIs) set at 80.

You can get more headroom my increasing your crossover, but with full size front speakers, I would suggest they be set no higher than 80. For center and surrounds, no higher than 100. Just my opinion.

[StephenM]

They have more distorton in the first couple of watts, compared to a good amp

It's not really a matter of distortion, but one of noise.

I also wouldn't necessarily say that receivers perform especially poorly in this regard either as compared with separates.

A little comparison: look to the 100 milliwatt figures:

Pretty good, as one should expect from Bryston

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2010/september-2010/bryston-3b-sst2-amplifier/bryston-3b-sst2-power-amplifier-thd-plus-n-vs-power-8-ohms.gif

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2010/september-2010/bryston-3b-sst2-amplifier/bryston-3b-sst2-power-amplifier-thd-plus-n-vs-power-4-ohms.gif

The Emotiva XPA-2 for comparison

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2008/december-2008/emotiva-xpa-2-amplifier-thd+n-vs-power-8-ohms-large.gif

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2008/december-2008/emotiva-xpa-2-amplifier-thd+n-vs-power-4-ohms-large.gif

A $1900 Integra receiver. Dare I say it bests the Bryston at 100mW???

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2009/june-2009/integra-dtr89/integra-dtr-8.9-receiver-thd-plus-n-vs-power-8-ohms-large.gif

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2009/june-2009/integra-dtr89/integra-dtr-8.9-receiver-thd-plus-n-vs-power-4-ohms-large.gif

A $900 Onkyo receiver. Doesn't give Bryston owners any need to worry, but it looks rather good compared to the XPA-2

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2009/march-2009/onkyo-tx-sr706-receiver-thd-n-vs-power-8-ohms-large.gif

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2009/march-2009/onkyo-tx-sr706-receiver-thd-n-vs-power-4-ohms-large.gif

An entry level Onk. Guess they showed mercy on it...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2008/november-2008/onkyo-tx-sr-576-receiver-thd+n-vs-power-8-ohms-large.gif

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2008/november-2008/onkyo-tx-sr-576-receiver-thd+n-vs-power-4-ohms-large.gif

[cornfedksboy]

Would the difference in the RC52ii Vs the RC62ii be something that I could only audition to tell the difference? That question also goes for the amp.

Yes and yes. Ignorance is bliss, and that is espescially true with audio. You don't know what you're missing until you hear the next best thing. I would be stunned if you didn't notice an improvement with the RC-62 II over the 52. An amp, I'd give 50/50 depending on what you purchased and how you listened. I would definately get your current system set-up to the best of it's capability, and then try and determine if you feel that you are missing anything. Next, decide if the reward is worth the investment.

The RF62iis are about 6' apart toed in.

I'd go wider...more like 8-10 foot.

I have found that the speakers show and sound bad when the incoming media is bad.

Klipsch speakers are very revealing. Bad media will sound bad with good speakers! I can't hardly watch/listen to a DVD anymore.

[SuBXeRo]

I spread and toe in my speakers depending on my listening position and far i am from the speakers and most certainly of all....the speakers themselves dictate what sounds better. My rf-7's sound great far apart when further back but should be in a bit closer together based on my listening position but cant because of my entertainment center. I had them too close and i sat too close and the imaging was just as bad, i also didnt have enough toe in. Of all the speakers i have owned klipsch wise, the rf-7's have given me the most grief with versatile imaging in many seating positions. My rf-5's and rf-3's and rf-10's were incredibly versatile and i never had an issue with them.?

Quality of your source is so important. It is mind boggling how much shitty source media is out there and the klipsch are quite good at revealing it. Having high quality audio has certainly turned me into a more discerning individual as far as quality is concerned and you get what you pay for a lot of the time.

[CMG]

I will try moving the speakers around and see how they sound. Once I get those figured out I might start thinking about an amp for the system.

As for the RC62ii, do you think there is someone who would trade the RC52ii for a RC62ii? Or an online dealer that would accept a trade? I could sell the RC52ii but I'm not sure what to sell it for since it came in a package.

[SuBXeRo]

craigslist for a local transaction or ebay and audiogon for inter. You can find how much they are going for on the internet. Provided you have boxes and what not, a person can avoid shipping and tax by buying from you and may be willing to pay 50-75 less than retail. People do make weird trades so its possible someone wants a smaller center. Id list the center at retail price and let offers come in.