Mallette Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 (This is being moved from another thread, as it is has "morfed" from my original subject as is much more appropriate to this forum...love to hear other opinions) FROM HDBRBUILDER: David, I think the problem with CD's as compared to a good analog recording is the nature of how the information is laid-down/picked-up. In an analog recording on a record, all the musical information is there, it just takes the right stylus and cartridge to pick it all up. But on a CD, whichever signal is the strongest at a particular micromillesecond is what gets the nod to be put onto the format to be refracted by a laser...leaving the rest of the signals out of the picture...and thereby losing the fidelity found in analog recordings. I noticed this when comparing CD's to record albums early on after the introduction of the CD format...something was always missing from the CD that the analog recording retained!...ESPECIALLY on "live" recordings!! The only thing that saves grace on DAT is the larger amount of signal input info that can be put down on the magnetic tape as compared to a CD! We have little choice but to accept the CD as the primary format in this day and age though...its advantage in smaller size, convenience, and "no scratches" to have to listen to has left us analog folk searching through rummage sales and used record shops to try and find good condition analog recordings of our favorites, I am sad to say! On a positive note, though...with today's resurgence of high-end turntables to audiophile set-ups...if the trend continues, then maybe the recording companies will take note and come out with "original master recordings" on vinyl to fill the void they left when they spurned vinyl in favor of the CD format!!...Who Knows? Stranger things have happened!!! It seems whenever a market is found, a product shows up to fill the niche!! Glad you are enjoying those k-horns so very much...I kinda figured you would!! MALLETT RESPONDS: Well, as I said in my earlier post, I do not think it is the 16/44.1 sampling rate as I once did. Having made numerous location recordings using it over the past several years, I feel the standard has been criticized when other issues are actually to blame. The first thing my wife heard (to bring in the thread) on the "new" horns was the solo piano recording I mentioned. She agreed it was the best piano recording she'd ever heard. As I am sure you are aware, absolutely nothing is more difficult to record than piano. I'd also point out that most of my CD's sound much, much better after being copied to HDD as WAV files and played back through a high-end sound card. Of course, the CD is just a medium, and (IMHO, though some golden-ear tweaker types ((no offense intended)) disagree) for storing digital information. CD's I make from my DAT masters sound as good as the original when re-transfered back to the DAT. I performed this experiment to reassure myself that no transcoding was going on, and that it was the CD player(s) and not the digital info that was at fault in the percieved deterioration of audio quality from my masters. I do not own, nor have I had the opportunity to live with a high end CD player, but I suspect that getting top quality sound from a CD is probably MORE expensive than what is required to get the same or better sound from an LP...though certainly possible. JMHO. Dave BTW, I am going to copy this and repost it to the 2 channel sound group, as I'd like to hear more opinions on it and I don't think many are following this thread anymore. ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 How do you define 'high-end sound card'? I think it is very difficult to get a real apples to apples comparison between vinyl and CD. Each does certain things better than the other, and they just simply do things differently. Also, the cost/performance ratio argument can be misleading. When I see the cost of the some of the top vinyl rigs, I simply gag. Give me 1/2 as much money for a good Redbook transport/DAC, and I will do very well indeed. I had a nice rig back in the late 70's. Good table with moving coil. When CD originally came out -- I thought it just sounded horrid. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation low cost DACs, and half deaf recording engineers -- did not mix well. Somewhere in the mid 90's however, it seems things started to come together for PCM. 15 years of technological advances, combined with 15 years of digital experience in the studio (compare any of the early CD recordings to the new 20 bit and more remasters of the same material) -- have brought PCM to a more than acceptable standard. One simply can not compare the 1980 PCM standard to the 2002 PCM standard. It's like comparing a decent vinyl rig to a Gramophone. I think it's that big of a difference. I had just recently sold my Anthem CD-1 (paid $1700 in 1996) and bought a Sony DVPS-9000ES. I did this primarily to try SACD, but at the same time being prepared to be completely let down with it's Redbook playback capability. However, I was instead immediately struck with the superiority of the sound as compared to the Anthem. Evidently, much was accomplished in the six years between the manufacture of my 'high-end' Anthem and my 'mid-fi' Sony. It may have taken 20 years -- but the CD has finally arrived. Redbook may always have a touch of that digital haze, but it gives you dynamics and clarity in spades. Vinyl will always sound a bit compressed, but gives a smoothness and a somewhat expanded soundstage. At this point in the game it is merely a matter of preference. I don't think one can any longer say -- "Man, CD's sound like shite" Now of course we have SACD and DVD-A. Another 10 years and I think we can put our vinyl away. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-21-2002 at 04:05 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 21, 2002 Author Share Posted May 21, 2002 >How do you define 'high-end sound card'? Easy...if it sounds good, it is good. Seriously, I'd put the Pinnacle at the low end of high end. I believe tomshardware.com has some good reviews of sound cards. Certainly Card Deluxe is a huge bargain. $tereophile compared it to a 15,000.00 Mark Levinson DAC. As to vinyl rigs, I hear you. It is absurd. However, a 100.00 turntable and cartridge in good condition sounds much beter than a 100.00 CD player to my ears. Once you get past 700.00 in vinyl, I cease to hear much change. OTOH, 700.00 CD players don't sound that much better than 100.00 ones to me. My guess is that my 400.00 sound card, if it were in a CD transport, would cost more like 1500.00 or so. >Vinyl will always sound a bit compressed... Not with judiciously applied DBX :-) >"Man, CD's sound like shite" That was not my orginal point. If you read closely, you will note that the recording I consider as good as anything I've heard was made in 16/44.1 PCM. Remember, "CD" is only a storage device, not a signal source. Again, I blame lack of experience (as you pointed out, we've over a 100 years of experience producing vinyl) in the digital medium for the generally lackluster sonics available on CD. Just this evening, I listened to Sheffield Labs Harry James CD (The King James Version) followed by Midnight Oil "Diesal and Dust." Both these sound far better transferred to HDD than played back on my Sony CD player. >Another 10 years and I think we can put our vinyl away. Hmmm... So when do I put the shellac away? I've 80 year old discs that sound better than some CD's (and I REALLY mean that). Good stuff! Thanks for the post. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 Very topical for me right now... Just took delivery on my first tt in 25 years recently. Never, ever thought I would lay down serious scratch for some Jurassic audio format. No way, not me. But here I am listening to Patricia Barber on vinyl while I type. She freaking sounds like she's in the next room! I cannot even begin to imagine what it might cost to get near that fidelity digitally. While I'm sure, SACD and DVD-A will improve on CD digital sound, it will still be digital sound. Just do the math. Digital is finite. Analog is not. We can argue back and forth about what is going to happen in the future. But one thing for sure, is the fact that the record companies will not give one iota of consideration to sound quality when it comes time to decide on format. They will sell what people buy, and people buy what is cheaper. There IS a chance neither SACD or DVD-A will get much play. Do we need to list the failed (albeit superior performing) formats? Probably not. For now, I choose vinyl. It sounds better to me. PS When I played Big Brother & The Holding Company's "Cheap Thrills" on vinyl for my 17 year old daughter and her friends, they said "Wow, she can really sing". Ya think? ------------------ 2 channel Klipsch Cornwalls (1978) Cary CAD 300SEI amp (WE 300B's, various NOS 6SN7's) Arcam Alpha MCD cd player Accuphase T-101 Tuner Clearaudio Champion TT Rega RB300 arm (quint wire) Benz Micro Cartridge EAR Phono Stage HT Klipsch KG2.5 (front & rear) Klipsch KV2 (center) Klipsch SW12 (sub) Marantz SR7000 receiver Toshiba DTS DVD JVC SVHS VCR Sony Hi8 VCRs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 OOOOOooooo.... Nice TT. I think I've made it clear I am not against digital. I am for excellence in any medium I can get it. When I was 20 or so, I could hear out well past 20khz. When I walked under one of those ultrasonic burglar alarm transducers I would go into instant extreme pain and dodge as though the furies of hell had attacked me. Some were 140db...very painful, but only a minute fraction of the population could hear it. Of course, those days are long gone, but listening to CD's with shimmery cymbals, applause, and other very high frequency things I always seem to sense the total cieling at 15khz. I cannot explain this biologically, as it seems rather unlikely that I can even hear 15khz anymore, much less harmonics above. OTOH, the sense is very real and does not occur with analog sources. In fact, even 78's sound open and airy, not confined in any sense. Some are better than others. My copy of the Sheffield 80's release of Harry James doesn't seem to suffer this, nor Midnight Oil's "Diesal and Dust." Anyway...if it sounds good, it IS good. I certainly agree that LPs still deliver much more bang for the audiophile buck than the current state of digital technology. The only way to get affordable high-end digital sound is through a computer Uou can get Dell refurbs with 350mhz or better CPU's ready to run for 150.00 or so...that is more than adequate. Of course, you need to add a sound card and removable drives if you expect a large collection. A 120.00 80gig 5400rpm (all you need for audio) drive will hold over 120 untranscoded CDs. Card Deluxe has been compared favorably to a Mark Levinson $15k DAC, and will set you back about 500.00. So as a player only, a dedicated PC for the purpose can be put together for 750.00, including monitor. I doubt you will find a OEM CD player for that that sounds anywhere near as good. Add RMD (20.00 for each rack, 70-140.00 for drive(s) depending on size), WinAmp to play (free), CDex to rip (free) and you can put your CD's away for safe keeping and enjoy high end CD sound...for whatever you think it is worth. That is pretty cheap...but still won't sound as good as a 200 ebay TT with a new stylus. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 I love it when I learn something thanks ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Cool Newbie Posts: 34 From: Flower Mound, Texas, USA Registered: May 2002 posted 05-22-2002 09:37 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OOOOOooooo.... Nice TT. I think I've made it clear I am not against digital. I am for excellence in any medium I can get it. When I was 20 or so, I could hear out well past 20khz. When I walked under one of those ultrasonic burglar alarm transducers I would go into instant extreme pain and dodge as though the furies of hell had attacked me. Some were 140db...very painful, but only a minute fraction of the population could hear it. Of course, those days are long gone, but listening to CD's with shimmery cymbals, applause, and other very high frequency things I always seem to sense the total cieling at 15khz. I cannot explain this biologically, as it seems rather unlikely that I can even hear 15khz anymore, much less harmonics above. OTOH, the sense is very real and does not occur with analog sources. In fact, even 78's sound open and airy, not confined in any sense. Dave, this is not so far fetched. Now, I'm not a believer in too many things I can't measure, but I do remember a few moments of my earliest days in the crib and I can SWEAR, as GOD ALL MIGHTY as my witness, that when my parents came into the darkened room I could actually SEE a VIOLET "AURA" around their body. Maybe we are all given this at birth but soon loose it when exposed to the environment around us?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 23, 2002 Author Share Posted May 23, 2002 Well, don't want to venture too far off topic, but I've had a few experiences in the area of the very, very strange...a couple of OBE's, and even womb memory. That aside, I threw away a couple of "ultrasonic" dog whistles when I was a kid because I could clearly hear them. I assumed they didn't work... Like the super-tweakers, thousand dollar cable types, etc. I CLEARLY hear the the cieling on CD's. Thankfully, I do not hear the difference in super dollar cables and power supplies. One I can't do anything about (except listen to broadband analog and digital sources...the other costs too damn much money. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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