Chris Robinson Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Was reading through HDR's informal poll, and came across Tom Brennan's comment (following) which kind of slapped me on the side of the head. We all know Tom's one of the premier "hornies", so I'm going to play "Swiss" (neutral) on this one and let's get to it, debating and discussing ... Think there's something to be learned here ... "If I was going to buy new Klipsch speakers I'd get motion picture theater speakers from the pro line; double 15s in vented boxes and 2" driver on big tractrix horn. Recently I came THIS close to buying a pair of used KP-301s, sort of pro Cornwalls but better, at Sam Ash. I think the pro side is really where the action is. I'm puzzled by how little interest there is here in the pro speakers for home use." ------------------ "Bullsh*t!" -PWK- --------------------- TWO-CHANNEL SYSTEM Eico HF-81 Eico HFT-90 AES AE-25 "Superamp" (in temporary retirement) AES AE-3 Pre-amp (in temporary retirement) New Tube 4000 CD Player 1976 Klipschorns (KCBR's & ALK'ed) HOME THEATER Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF) ALK Belle Klipsch (Center) Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR) Klipsch KSW-12 sub Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls) Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's) Denon AVR-4800 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Well....I can't argue against the pro-line products...but they will NEVER get a wife's approval in the home!!...they aren't pretty!! Another thing to consider on the pro-line speakers is their cost...pretty damned high!!! And, besides that...the woofers in those speakers are heavy duty models...can take gobs of power, but have to give something up for that too...and that something is low-end extension...just ask any of the Klipsch engineers. Even the old "Industrial" LaScalas and Heresys, with their heavy duty components, gave up frequency range to handle all that extra power and dB....something to consider. But, if somebody doesn't mind their speakers being all black, huge, and EXPENSIVE AS HELL....and prefers extreme decibels and ability to handle gobs of power over better low-end range in a comparable "heritage" model...then that is his or her choice...more power to em!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Oh man, could this get dicey. Now Builder, since when did you start worrying about WAF Cost? A pair of KPT325's would run less than $3000 a pair, right around what a set of LaScalas would cost, and they are two-ways to boot -- with a HF driver that plays down to 600Hz. Low end extension? Well, they play at least as low as the Scalas and Heresy's right? Who needs low end finesse when you got all that ACCURACY? Kidding aside. I think Tom would argue for the driver that plays everything from 600Hz on up. I gotta admit -- that's appealing. One thing you bring up of notable interest is the bit about being designed for being able to take massive amounts of power. That makes me think about Heritage and how PWK designed Heritage to be used with very low power. Pro Line configurations might play hell with SET or Triode PP amps. I get this idea from a review I read for the RB5 about a year ago. Here are the comments I am referring too with the related graph. The impedance curve shows woofer and port peaks, the latter at 50 ohms, a low point between them of 5 ohms, with a high of 29 ohms in the midrange. Maybe this speaker isn't quite the answer for single-ended fans after all, since frequency response will tend to track the impedance curve with these amps in such circumstances. The midrange phase angle is fairly steep at +/- 45o, but we must remember that this is electrical phase, and that the horn loading of the tweeter, which puts it well behind the woofer, may well tend to bring it into better acoustic phase with it. The RB-5 should be fairly easy to drive, but a single-ended amp might not like the phase angle, either.f>s> ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-01-2002 at 08:17 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Builder---One needn't give-up low frequency extension to gain power handling, not at all. Those qualities that determine low end response are not neccesarily, if at all, related to power handling. Some of the JBL Pro woofers have extraordinary power handling and quite good low frequency response. If Pro versions of certain Heritage speakers had higher f3s than normal versions I'd say it was Klipsch-specific and not something that can be taken as general. It may be that the pro woofs were more efficient than the regular ones, that <would> effect low end response adversely. Nor do I think that big black boxes are ugly; form follows function and such boxes simply are what they are, devices for reproducing sound. Lots of Altec and JBL guys do fine with gray and black utility boxes and exposed horns, actually I think such speakers look better than furniture type cabinets, they're more honest and show their nature rather than hiding it. I've heard the KP-301 and consider it a better speaker than the Cornwall. It doesn't go as low as a CW (smaller box) but has nicer midrange with it's tractrix horn and a more extended high-end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Tom, I can't find the 301 -- is it the predecessor to the current 302? The 302 crosses over at 1.2Khz -- doesn't really seem like your kind of animal. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Dean---Hmmmm, seems to be gone. Think of the KP-250 but with a 15 instead of a 12. It was the mid horn from the 301 that I used in my modded Cornwalls. That KPT-325 would probably sound great in a home, cheap and elegant too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Tom, Personally, I don't care if a speaker cabinet is pink with purple polka dots....since I ain't married...LOL! And this thread wasn't referring to anything JBL or Altec has, but a comparison of Klipsch Pro-line to Klipsch Heritage...so that kinda is out in space somewhere! And, I will let you and Dean argue about just how much high-end extension is needed for the musical spectrum (ie., "KPT 301 mid-range tractrix has more high-end extension than Cornwall's"...but Cornwall also has a tweeter, doesn't it?)...LOL! Dean, As for a "reasonable price" of just under 3 grand for a pair, just how much does a pair of good Cornwalls on eBay go for, lately, again? HMMMM? Tom, And the 301 still doesn't have the low-end extension of the Cornwalls?...Isn't that what you said? Tom, As for liking a speaker to look like a speaker...I like that too...have you not seen what I have for Heresys? And, if I had Cornwalls, I would want the early decorator flush-fronts, just like my Heresys! (with some nice "Industrial motorboard metal grilles" protecting those woofers, too!) See attached pic. All said and done, I still don't see a major overall advantage to that pro-line speaker over the Cornwalls...in ANY category!!...But, for those who like it better than the Cornwall...and can afford it...more power to ya!! Personally...if I was gonna have a "pro-line" Klipsch set-up...I would build up a couple MCM1900 systems...they are a helluva lot easier to build than a pair of Klipschorns, too!! Besides, if yer gonna have pro sound and have the room, then may as well go all the damned way, right? ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 06-01-2002 at 10:02 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Builder---My point in mentioning Altec and JBL was in reference to the black Klipsch Pro utility cabinets: that for many years many Altec and JBL enthusiasts have been happy with utility cabinets like the 825, 620 and 4560. So using utility cabinets is not unusual in the home and many hornies actually prefer them and that that being the case maybe some Klipschies oughta consider using utility cabinets too. I didn't say the 301's midrange had better high-end extension than the CW, I said the 301 had better extension, it used a tweeter too and a better one. Considering the cost of many "high-end" loudspeakers, most of which use cheap Madisound Catalog DR drivers and sound like television sets on steroids, I consider the pro speakers from Klipsch bargains as new speakers go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vavoline Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Builder, That is the finest looking specimen of a Heresy I've ever seen. I knew from some of your previous posts they weren't run of the mill, but DANG! BTW, How are you coming along with those uuugly Scala-Wags you got on ebay? I hope you post some pics of those babies after you get finished with them. Vavoline This message has been edited by Vavoline on 06-02-2002 at 02:11 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Tom, Dean, and Vavoline: As you can see by the pic I posted earlier in this thread of one of my Heresys, utility cabinets need not be black (or painted any other COLOR to hide the wood grain)to look nice!! They just need to be built of parts sawn with a bit of attention to detail so that the cabinets can be finished so that the wood is seen instead of hidden! DIY cabinets need not be painted in COLORS either if GOOD quality plywood is hand selected for match of grains and carefully sawn to make the parts. All this requires is a bit of extra attention by the fabricator in those processes. Why just concentrate on the box itself when a bit of attention to detail is all that is required to build something quite unique? That is the mark of any true woodworker...being able to turn a "sow's ear" of a project into a "silk purse"...don't you agree? Nobody ever has to remove the grille cloth from my Heresys to see what the mouth of the drivers looks like, and I like staring back at those components as they fill the room with music!! To me, a friggen speaker should LOOK LIKE A SPEAKER, but that doesn't mean it has to be painted in colors to still have enough "class" to look nice in a living room! The old style flush-front Cornwalls, without a grille cloth attached, can look pretty damned impressive if built right...and those cabinets are pretty simple affairs to build from plywood too!! As a matter of fact, every edge at the front, top, and bottom COULD be cut so that it was completely mitered...leaving NO plywood edges showing anywhere except at the back!! With the addition of a metal grille panel to protect the woofer, in lieu of a grille cloth panel covering the entire front of the speaker and hiding the components, I think they would outshine even a Belle in the looks department....but, then again, that would be up to the builder, wouldn't it? Just a bit of food for thought to those not "mentally hemmed-in" with the belief that "if PWK had thought they should be built that way, he woulda built em that way!!" Remember...PWK, himself made some mighty fine compliments to me about my Heresys after he saw em on the table in final assembly awaiting testing...and I mentioned to him about the thought of having fully mitered cabinets on some birch ones so no plys showed...he thought about it for a second and said they would look beautiful that way, but there was no way the company could afford to do it that way due to the extra time and labor involved...but he would sure like to see some made that way sometime!! "The Master" liked the look of a finely crafted cabinet as much as I do...that is enough to convince me that there is no sacriledge in building speaker cabinets that way...what do you think? The only limiting factor to building cabinets in that manner is to pay strict adherence to INTERIOR DIMENSION, PORT SIZES AND PLACEMENT, and the PLACEMENT and SIZE of the SHELF BAFFLE and COMPONENTS OPENINGS in a Cornwall...as long as one does that in the building of the cabinet, and uses the proper components in the cabinet...it is STILL a CORNWALL, isn't it? Just a bit of "food for thought" for DIY types with good woodworking skills and equipment who are out there with Cornwalls having raggedy cabinets...take it or leave it! But, before you decide to "leave it", give it a little thought and look at the pics attached of the flush front cornwalls...and my previously posted pic of one of my Heresys and think about how they would look that way!! Hell, on the Cornwalls, you could even attach some grille-cloth to the inside of the front of the cabinet to cover the ports and keep curious critters out of the cabinets, couldn't you? Think about it!! I would love to see some of the DIY types on this forum submit some pics of a finished project like this...wouldn't you? The same thing can be done for ANY pro-line cabinet, too!!! Why take all that time to build up something and paint it black when a bit of extra time and effort can yield something truly beautiful? ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Builder---Yes, if one is building one's own utility cabinets you might as well make them look pretty. My Altec 825s were built for me by a Boilermaker who enjoys woodworking and does fanatical quality work, he used 3/4" Baltic birch and added extra bracing. I simply sanded and varnished them, they look pretty nice. But those gray Altec cabinets look pretty good too in an industrial kinda way. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 A couple of things about theatre speakers a lot of folks don't realize ... they were designed as part of a synergistic system, especially in the pre-THX days, which took into account the considerable limitations of the optical pick-up, the amplification of the 1930s, and the fact that the speaker would be placed behind a perforated screen. More modern designs had to adhere to the specifications set up during the thirties so everything would be compatible and film distributors wouldn't have to worry about double inventories. The college where I used to work had a 1200 seat theatre with a single RCA two-way folded horn for films. This thing was the size of a small boxcar, and with the wooden multicell horn on top, was about 7 and a half feet tall. If you played anything normal through it, it sounded terrible, with a big peak around 5k, and an open back woofer with nothing below about 80 hz. But, when you put it behind the screen, which smoothed out that 5k peak, and ran it off an optical soundtrack which had its own limitations, and a forty year old fifteen watt Super-Simplex amplifier, it sounded better than anything we ever ran against it, including LaScalas, VOTTs, EV Sentries, JBLs and Emilars. The peaks "fooled" most listeners into thinking it went much further in each direction than it really did, and the restricted frequency response filtered out the noise and distortion inherent in the electronics. I'm off on this tangent for a reason. PA and theatre speakers make trade-offs for their applications. The heavier woofers used in the industrial Heresies, for instance, go louder, but the greater mass affects transient response and the stiffer materials restrict low frequency performance. Movie theatre speakers may have anomolies which are not apparent at the multiplex, but could get pretty annoying at home. For instance, the Heresies used for the surround channel in theatres don't have tweeters, because in most soundtracks, there wouldn't be anything for them to do. At home, you might miss them. Capt'n Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 Cap'n Bob, Yep, Industrial Heresys and LaScalas could get louder than home versions, could take more power, too...but their heavy duty woofers lost some low-end extension in the process...not a good trade-off for a home listening environment, in my opinion. My Heresys have Industrial woofers in them...but Gwin had Mr. Bradford test some before mine were installed, and even though they are industrial models, they STILL reach as low as standard ones...one of the advantages of working there...Gwin promised a special treatment, and she delivered!! Of course I had to wait a few days before they found a performance-wise match of two industrial woofers that extended to the low-end that non-industrial woofers would go, before she could install them!! If I remember correctly...one of them came from one pallet of woofers, and the other came from the fourth pallet after that!! That was alot of woofers to test during breaktimes and lunch before a good match was made for me, too!!...but then again...Gwin and I did alot of partying together in those days!! Mr. Bradford also did some kinda tweaking to my Heresy crossover networks at his home the night before I picked up my Heresys...he said "They will give the best performance for what you have in those boxes now...the best of both worlds, home and Industrial...enjoy them, and don't worry about giving them extra juice, either...they can take alot of it, now!!" ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 06-19-2002 at 10:19 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 TBrennan... Those Altec A-8's I believe in the pic you posted. They kinda come close to the Cornwalls too. Just add a high end tweeter...LOL. I always liked the VOTT when I was a kid, heard the group Chicago over them. "If you leave me now..You'll take away the biggest part of me..." Still gives me shivers to think about it. WOW sweet!! HDBRbuilder, I have the "decorator" I believe as you say it Birch "Raw" straight faced Cornwalls at my house. I NEVER painted them or stained then never added anything to them and for some reason LOVE them this way too. ( No chemicals just a clean diaper rag to dust em off once a week..LOL.) I left my heresy's the same way too. I bought the black screen covers as an add on from Klipsch in the mid 80's complete with velcro when I moved into my first apartment out of College. I was too afraid people might poke a hole through something. But also take them off, once in a while, just to see the woofers move and get even purer music (In my opinion it just sounds brighter and more crisp and so life like it is scarey.) For those of you who have never pulled off the screens I highly recommend it too. As a side note, the screens on the Older heritage line are pretty thick. I am sure they were tested without the screens I wonder if anyone thought to see if there was any difference? I SWEAR there is. Just my 2 cents. Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Indy, When I worked there, the speakers were sent over to the testing booth, and those with removable grille-cloth panels had their panels removed for testing...those with stapled on grille-cloth panels didn't have that option. My understanding is that speakers were performance tested in the anechoic chamber with no grilles on them whenever posssible...unless the test was specifically to find out the difference the grilles made to the performance data. I agree that having the grilles off gives much better performance...at least to my ears!! No matter how "sonically transparent" a grille material is, it is never as "sonically transparent" as just plain air is!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 06-20-2002 at 11:56 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 HDR, I'd like a pair of Cornwall cabinets that look just like your Heresy. How about it? hehehe Is there something that can be done to my cornwalls shown in my signature? They are 1979 and the black grills are held on with round pieces of velcro.. original. The speakers have a slight overhang in the front which the grills fit into and are then flush. What can be done to make them more like yours? ------------------ Bob Lindabury SPEAKERS Fronts: Cornwalls (2) Center: KLF-C7 (1) Rears: RS-3's (2) Sub: AudioSource SW-15 Rear Center: Umm...any suggestions? AMP: Sony STR-DB1070 6.1 MISC: Hafler DH-200 Amp;Yamaha C-50 Pre-Amp; Technics SL-1410MK2 Turntable; Sony DVP-S360 DVD http://www.ravenimaging.com/bobl/audioequip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Raven, The Cornwall cabinet style you have is the version that replaced the flush-front version in 1978. Completely different type of cabinet build on later style like yours...earlier flush-front style was actually a stronger box design, but later style was adopted to allow for grille cloth panels to be installed...the same type as used on the fine veneered miter corner version....PLUS the change to the later style allowed for use of black painted fronts as on the mitered corner version...saved company a few bucks in the change because sanding and finishing of the front wasn't necessary anymore, just drop in a black painted one...and saved on time consumption of stapling grille cloth to speaker front and adding trim as in the earlier version of cabinet...when customer wanted grille cloth installed. Email me sometime...if you are serious about getting cabinets similar to my Heresy cabinets...who knows? But keep in mind that I don't work for free!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 06-21-2002 at 11:06 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.