neo33 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Recently I did some inventory and cleanup of my closet of junk and found the above table that I acquired a while back. The TT itself has an acrylic platter. I didn't know that Thorens TT came with acrylic platter. I have never listen to a Thorens TT. Anyone has the above combination? Any feedback would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 You just happen to have a td 160 super hanging out in the closet! How does it sound? Try doing some research on the arm and see what cartridges should match well, sorry, no direct experience here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 I did some web search and found very little information on the above arrangement. Apparently, the Black Widow tonearm is reputable in the '70 and is known by an esoteric group and could cost as much as $2,500 if it is still available today. The Signet TK 10ML MM cartridge is a top of the line cartridge from the early '80 and retails for over $400. The combination works excellent together. Some people replaced the original outer metal platter with acrylic on their TD-160 to reduce resonant. I take it that is what the original owner did to this table. If memory serves, the table was moderately used but the tonearm and cartridge had very little mileage on them. Is this table a keeper? I bought the whole thing for $500. Anybody else own this table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I've had both a Thorens TD-160 (but not the "Super" ~ not sure what variation that is) and Black Widow tonearn but not used together at the same time. IMHO the TD-160 is a great little Thorens. To get significantly better performance you really have to start paying up. By now your Thorens probably could use a new belt if you haven't already done so. Maybe a drop of oil in the spindle bearing. Other than that they're pretty much trouble free. http://www.turntablebasics.com/ is a good source for parts and supplies. The Black Widow is a very low mass tonearm, and therefore a lighter weight, high compliance cartridge would mate best with it. I believe the Signet was made by Audio Technica and has/had a pretty good reputation. I believe its a moving magnet type so it should be in the lighter weight catagory. I used to use Sonus Blue, Red or Green pickups with the Black Widow and that combo was a very good match. However, the biggest problem with the Black Widow is that this is a very early "carbon" fiber arm and as I recall its not as stiff as one might expect compared to today's carbon graphite products. The other thing was bearing chatter from the vertical knife bearings. The arm was so light that with higher sound levels this could become an issue in some rooms or systems. I had one mounted on a beautiful direct drive Luxman turntable but unfortunately the combination sucked. There was way too much airbourne and mechanical sound pickup through the DD Luxman with such a light arm and the thing could feedback even if it was located in an adjacent room (using Khorns of course). $500 is probably more than I would pay but probably not too bad. I would say its a keeper regardless. Just don't expect much if you try using a heavy moving coil cartridge on it. You might find something that works but its really not the best combination because most moving coils are lower compliance cantilever. The heavier cartridge weight along with the lower compliance usually causes the arm/cartridge resonant low frequency to move into an undesireable range that typically causes mistracking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Art's comments are right on the money. I had a TD160 and it sounded terrific, especially for the $100 it cost me. It had the stock arm and I used a cheap Grado Black cart. That made for one heck of a (+/-) $150 table. I ended up settling for a Shure V15 and couldn't beat the sound without spending a good bit more money. If you've been here a while, you might remember how much trouble Fini had with his Black Widow/TD125(???) combo. The arm was too light and he couldn't seem to keep it from jumping around the vinyl no matter what he tried. I believe he eventually solved the problem by "accidentally" knocking the table off a dresser or some other equally creative solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Basically, you guys are telling to dump the Black Widow tonearm? From what I can tell, the tonearm on my 160 Super has considerable "weight". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Basically, you guys are telling to dump the Black Widow tonearm? From what I can tell, the tonearm on my 160 Super has considerable "weight". Can you post a picture? The Black Widow has to be one of, if not the lowest mass tonearm I've ever used. Maybe your Black Widow has been modified (like the TT platter was) in which case I definitely wouldn't trust it. You never know what somone who "thinks they know" what they are doing did only actually make things worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khorn51 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I have a black widow on my TD 125 and love it it track real real well.even the 1812 cannon shots. you have to use a low complance cart with it. I have it set up with a ortonfon cart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Once again have you listened to it? How are you judging "weight?" Is the arm off and you have picked it up? From low mass to high in tonearms the difference is not that many grams. Do you have muscle memory which can tell a few grams difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 LOL! I levitate the tonearm and read its weight in midair via telepathy. In all seriousness, when I pickup the arm and move it, it seems to be pretty solid. Do you have muscle memory which can tell a few grams difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFord Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Black Widow was a "hot" arm back in the day. I bought one, and never had a chance to listen to it, store burned while my table was in to have it installed. I don't think it was considered accurate, just one of those items that paired well with certain other items. When it comes to vintage stuff, the only turntable and arm that could still tempt me to use it is a Well Tempered. I don't think I have the patience, or the resources that used to exist to fine tune the setup of various combo's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LousyTourist Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Don'tditch any of it. Put a good MM cartridge on it, Shure's were king back in the day, set it up carefully, and enjoy. You're 3/4 of the way to the ultimate in analog experience right there. Not too sure about the 'super' variation. The 160s I had were aluminum platter and I've never seen aftermarket replacements for them, but as our kind love to tweak, I'm sure they existed. Do pull the spindle up, swab the bearing out carefully and fill 1/3 with high grade light weight oil. Specific recommendations are available but I liked to use electric engine oil, very light weight blue 'royal' oil I believe they called it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Here is a photo of the tonearm and cartridge. Can you post a picture? The Black Widow has to be one of, if not the lowest mass tonearm I've ever used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 I finally hooked up the table and spinned a few vinyls last night. It played all vinyls in it entirety without a single skip on the tonearm despite what been said about it. Sonically, it is a very good combination. Though bass was lacking compared to my Linn Axis table. Could this be the result of the cartridge? I also played with an aluminum platter (twice as heavy as the acrylic) I acquired a couple days ago for comparison but found no noticeable different in sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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