A spin on the LaScala bin design

[2sick2pray]

I'll start by saying that with KG4guy's guidance and knowledge, I've ventured into my deviation of John Allen's 555 bin design.To answer Moray's question I've not fully landed on the driver choice yet and there are many suggestions to be looked at and I appreciate all. To complete this build I have the option to go to Kg4guy's design which was flared right from the back corner maintaining the flare of the roof panels. and extended beyond the 24" depth of the original LS design( KG4guy's post July 29th 2010). To keep the footprint at 24'' depth ' my mouth will end up by my math:)(: approx. 36.5"across, give or take a mile.. This build will be all part of a 3 way active system, and backed up by a Paradigm PS 1000 sub for now . A horn loaded 2sub build to follow. My Sansui will be my LF amp with 130rms and loads of headroom. It's a real workhorse. Also I'm entertaining the Daves Fastlane floor modded 40hz spec LS design. for the bottom of the bin. Did I mention that I work at a Building supply outlet ( 1"/ 17 ply Baltic Birch ) for the build and all the cabling I care to use. Side note I went for the Cat5e x4 twisted lay build ( as per the Speaker Cable Shootout 3) and take not that you have to follow very carefully to match solids(+) and strips(-) at terminations, to keep the cancellations right (all in for $1.16/ft) plus terminations. One of the biggest single improvements so far to my humble system. All I can say is that as I write this, Brian Bromberg's Downright Upright never sounded so complete,extended,dynamic, and wider. To qualify that statement I've been using 12/2 ga 513 strand zip wire with what I thought to be the best it was going to get. There are no placebo or any other (WMDS) influences going on, plain and simple objective listening. Did I mention I work at building supply store:) unlimited supply for the budding DIYer. I will endeavor to follow up with pics when I finally build the bins, hopefully mastering the upload sec of the forum. 2S2P

[Guest " "]

sounds good...we should probally let KG4guy give that flared LaScala cab a name.

[2sick2pray]

You're so right there speakerfritz, and with what you so candidly pointed out to other members that the original design used all of 2sheets of plywood and stumbled upon a 53hz cab. Like you said how you flare up, down ,wide or short, what can go wrong other than a pile of expensive sawdust.This build went from doing the original design to morphing into something all together, and all thanks to the forum and it's members. I thank you. 2S2P

[moray james]

Here is a Peavey FH-1. As you can see this could be made wider and taller and deeper if you wanted to but I think the dimensions that you have are about stretching what you are going to getto near if not the max. I will also re post some great info on drivers for the FH-1 which were supplied by member 1504-5 here on the forum. I expect that given the size of the dog house these drivers would work well in your cabinet.

Have you considered going with a synergy horn on to of your bin? You could go way or three way. Please keep us poste be nice to see your build. The 555 and the FH-1 are very much just larger Belle horns had it not been truncated to restrict its depth. My SP1's are almost as wide as an FH-1 short by only a few inches.Given that any of these will require a sub I am not sure going larger than an SL-1 or FH-1 buys you much. The FH-1 is a good bit larger than a La Scala or Bella and does not deliver much more by way of extension. I think that PWK figured that all out and kept things ecconomical both from a cost and size point of view. I will be much interested to see how your 555 measures out. Best regards Moray James.

I use my FH-1's from 80-500Hz. I have tested 3 drivers for home use, in my order of preference:

1. JBL 2226H
- "below 1.4kHz, has less than half the THD distortion (mainly 2H IIRC) of the 1504-4 and K-33" (or probably any other conventional driver - Altec included). It
also has higher power handling and less power compression. Although 8
ohms, the large throat of the FH-1 allows the use of 8 ohm drivers
without modification, unlike the LaScala. 8 ohm drivers allow amps to
run cooler. 2226H = cleanest bass I've heard from the FH-1.

Note
- I found 2 2226H's on Craigslist for $75. They were reconed by an
authorized JBL service center for $336. This works out to $205.50 per
driver. New 2226's run from $400-500 each, from what I've seen.

2. Peavey 1504-4
- available (for now), designed for the FH-1 bin, has less distortion
and higher power handling than the K-33. Large vent mags are most
desirable. Replacement baskets are about $85 @ www.8thstreetmusic.com. I
have 6 complete spares (for my "C" rig), all have large vent mags/new
baskets. If you're interested, I could part with 2.

BTW
- the distortion people complain about w/Peavey drivers is caused by
the VC gap contaminated by old, deteriorated mag vent filter foam, which
is easily cleaned.

3. K-33 - the distortion I
measured was bunched up at the low end, much like what happens when a 2"
driver is mismatched to a 1" horn. This was noted with 3 separate
drivers. Although I could not hear much difference between it and the
1504-4, my son could.

FWIW, I have used Peavey 1505-4 DT
baskets at the club, when I was in a bind. Peavey might also suggest
the 1502-4. Eminence suggested the Kappa-15C.

As for criteria, try to stay within 10-15% of the following Peavey T/S parameters:

Model 1504-4DT

Re 3.5

Fs 31.3

QTS .29

QMS 6.2

QES .32

VAS 385l

No 3.6%

Xmax +/-3.0 (6.0)

VD 240

SD 840*

*From BassBox Pro 6.0.22

These
are really mid-bass cabs. If you're looking for low end - use boundary
loading to your advantage - try placing them in corners.

If you
go vented, you might be able to use a Q2 +6db bump filter @ box tuning,
if needed. Just make sure you have at least a 12db HP filter set 5Hz
below box tuning. If you go this route, your amp will need lots of
headroom. Model first to check cone excursion.

peavey FH-1 plan drawing 3 April 2012.pdf

[2sick2pray]

Thank You again Moray you always been there for me. A quick note as I have to leave soon to support this habit. I now live in Red Deer , I will pm you tonite.

[moray james]

Pictures or a drawing would be great to see. Look forward to hearing from you later. Best regards Moray James.

PS I have a spare set of Peavey CH-1 horns with 22A drivers will run from 350 up with active filters and a steep slope for home use could make a killer two way.

[ClaudeJ1]

Mr. 2sick2pray,

I highly recommend that you model the cabinets in Hornresp before you build anything. I have designed my own bass horns, yet to be built and have modeled the FH-1 with various drivers and even came up with a mouth extension for it that lowers the response.

Better to use computer time than waste lumber.........can you do any measurements??

[ClaudeJ1]

BTW, John Allen's 555 cabinet was designed by the son of Gary Gillum. Gary used to be Chief Engineer at Klipsch, now retired in his 70's. He is co-patent holder with PWK on the MWM bass units and build many improved versions for John Allen as well. He is also the guy who designe the KG2 and KG4 speakers (the original KG2 was really KG squared, which stood for GG, Gary Gillum).

[moray james]

Here is a link to Allen's site

http://www.hps4000.com/

[moray james]

so is this what you are building or have you made changes? Is this in fact a 555 cabinet? Best regards Moray James.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/137936.aspx?PageIndex=1

[mustang guy]

Here is a link to Allen's site

http://www.hps4000.com/

and the 555: http://www.hps4000.com/pages/555_.html

[moray james]

The Peavey FH-1 is only 6.25 inches narrower or one could say more compact looks to be a nice compromise given a sub will be required either way and I always seem to be tight for floor space. Best regards Moray James.

[2sick2pray]

Mr. 2sick2pray,

I highly recommend that you model the cabinets in Hornresp before you build anything. I have designed my own bass horns, yet to be built and have modeled the FH-1 with various drivers and even came up with a mouth extension for it that lowers the response.

Better to use computer time than waste lumber.........can you do any measurements??

I'm learning everyday, so to be able to program a design I'm not there yet, however with my carpentry skills and a wild imagination coupled with my research on the subject and this forum's vast knowledge and experience I'm always open to ideas and willing to try this build. I can always go back to the 555 bin design with my skillset and a couple more sheets of plywood. I still have to keep the footprint no bigger than the 555 bin. 2S2P

[moray james]

Claude: how does the JBL 2226 H model compared to the EV woofers that you are using right now? Best regards Moray James.

[2sick2pray]

Pictures or a drawing would be great to see. Look forward to hearing from you later. Best regards Moray James.

PS I have a spare set of Peavey CH-1 horns with 22A drivers will run from 350 up with active filters and a steep slope for home use could make a killer two way.

Thanks moray, I already have k401's with k55ms and Bob C's ct125's.. Any how when I get to Calgary one of these days Iike to meet with you if that would be possible. Let me know if that would ok.

[2sick2pray]

so is this what you are building or have you made changes? Is this in fact a 555 cabinet? Best regards Moray James.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/137936.aspx?PageIndex=1

A variation of the 555 bin in that if you look closely at the 555 you see that the outside flare starting at the rear corner comes out at a different angle than the roof panels(doghouse). I want to come out straight like the original LS to the point where the roof panels start to flare and match the same angle outwards.The mouth should look uniform in design on both sides of the roof panels. I am only expecting to keep the sound of the original LS and the bonus is a gain in a few lower HZ's., more about looks than anything. I'm entertaining Dave's Fastlane 40 HZ mod on the bottom of this as well . I am interested in Bob Crites 15" cast for drivers or as you mention the JBL 2226H's, however my experience with trying to buy JBL 2213h's proved to costly, got outbid so many times because of the shipping cost to Canada. Any how will have Sub to help out. 2S2P

[moray james]

Would love to have you over for a visit and you can have a look at the SP1 cabinets that I have and at the CH-1's. I have attached a drawing of the Belle and you can see the similarities between it and the SP1/FH-1. So can you post a drawing of what it is that you plan to build? The 555 would seem to be a La Scala with a mouth 36.5 inches wide overall depth 24 inches. What do you have in mind? Are you intending this for home monitoring or for pa use? Have you run the K401's before? Best regards Moray James.

[ClaudeJ1]

Claude: how does the JBL 2226 H model compared to the EV woofers that you are using right now? Best regards Moray James.

I'm not modeling the JBL any time soon. I just moved all my speakers to a new space, which is a large loft, which I'm enlarging. The EV speakers stomped the K33's and Crites 1526. According to Dr. Bruce Edgar, the EVM 15 L or B is the best 15" woofer for a horn, and it models extremely well. Again I went from 4 way to 3-way, and it was tough to fill the missing sound from the Peavey MB-1 super midbass/midrange horn. It too the EVM woofer with brand new cones and lots of digital EQ to make it work and it's wonderful. I have no need for a JBL. I would like to see the results of that guy's MEASURMENTS, not just "opinion" need to see data.

What kind of "distortion"

[moray james]

Sorry but without a drawing I am just a bit confused are you saying that you are intending the horn to flair both horizontally and verticaly? In the La Scala the top and bottom panels are parallel to each other is this what you intend to do also? The picture of the 555 at the makers site looks like a La Scala with flaired side walls only. It sounds to me like you intend to keep the top and bottom panels parallel and that you want the side panels to flair out after the parallel wall section (after the first bend) as in the La Scala is this correct? I would think that the 555 arrangment with the sides flairing staight out from the corner would be more effective. The parallel wall section of the La Scala (as far as I can tell) is a usless section of the horn as it has zero expansion rate and is only there due to the initial size constraints of the design. As far as I know it offers no benefit. If I am wrong in this I would be happy to be corrected and learn how it is of benefit.

The La Scala is 24 inches across the mouth the Belle is 28.5 inches across the mouth the SP1 is about 30 inches across the mouth and the FH-1 is 31.5 across the mouth with the 555 measuring 36.6 inches across the mouth. Not a lot of difference in mouth size from one end to the other. The Belle is truncated and has close to the same mouth area as the La Scala with the SP1 FH-1 and the 555 being larger. Bass response is going to be similar and a sub will be required no matter which cabinet design is chosen and the useful lower range is going to be similar also being around 70 - 80 Hz with a fairly good slope, all of these horn will be starting to loose output by 100 Hz. That's why I am thinking that the SP1 is a pretty fair compromise about the same width as a Belle though as deep as the La Scala and with out the dead zone in the La Scala and not quite so large as the 555. I would appreciate any information comments and or corrections from anyone if I am in error about any of this. Thanks and best regards Moray James.

[2sick2pray]

Claude: how does the JBL 2226 H model compared to the EV woofers that you are using right now? Best regards Moray James.

I'm not modeling the JBL any time soon. I just moved all my speakers to a new space, which is a large loft, which I'm enlarging. The EV speakers stomped the K33's and Crites 1526. According to Dr. Bruce Edgar, the EVM 15 L or B is the best 15" woofer for a horn, and it models extremely well. Again I went from 4 way to 3-way, and it was tough to fill the missing sound from the Peavey MB-1 super midbass/midrange horn. It too the EVM woofer with brand new cones and lots of digital EQ to make it work and it's wonderful. I have no need for a JBL. I would like to see the results of that guy's MEASURMENTS, not just "opinion" need to see data.

What kind of "distortion"

I'm starting to get the picture now and I'm keeping an open mind to the driver selection. I have another month to decide, as I'm building all of my interconnects and speaker cables, the detached top hat and waiting for the plywood for the bins. That EV has my attention. Thanks for the heads up. 2S2P