A spin on the LaScala bin design

[moray james]

There are two designs which are similar to the FH-1(but larger) and one a little smaller (a tad smaller than a Belle). I still think smaller is fine as long as it gets you to arounf 80 Hz your sub will pickup the rest so why build a large cab? If you like the look of the larger cab Bruce has even found a cut list. I think that would be your safest bet if you want to do a large build you will have much better outcome than attempting to kluge a hybrid design on a first attempt. Not that I have anything againt experimenting I am all for that for sure. The smaller version of the two Ciare cabinets has that Belle look that I like. Great stuff huh? Best regards Moray James.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Thank You Moray: Let's start from the onset. I finally was in a position to start building a set of LS's this summer , which was a huge step for me. As my research moved along with regards to the intended build, I finally managed to get my hands on a pair k401's as they are not readily available for reasonable prices plus shipping from the States. Once done then able to secure K55M's at a really great deal. My limited budget only allowed for that, however a pair k402' would have been great coupled with a pr of TAD's. That said, I did more serious research and came across KG4guy's 555 build (July 29 2010) Klipsch forum, which really intrigued me. With further research I realized I can build those bins easily. I'm a carpenter by trade and work at a home building supply store ( Totem ). This led me to KG4guy's experience with his build and to go active Xover, which I might add I've embraced whole heartedly. Never looking back now. Now I've aquired what I need to do to move to the final stages of this complete system rebuild. I have 3 amps ready to roll, the transport , the DSP, the horns, tweets. My final decision is to pick a bin/ woofer to land on. Expectations are to be as close to 400hz with the K401/K55m as I can get. My DSP is a Behringer DCX2496 and capable of extreme slopes ( 6-48db/octave). Let me qualify all this as I'm still in the early stages of understanding the DIY world ,however I research everday and I'm gaining knowledge daily. The build I proposed for the bin is somewhere between the original LS and the 555 bin that KG4guy built. Not to far off the mark to be a disaster, and just maybe great enough to be a keeper. That said I can easily go back to the drawing board and build again, and I love experimenting, always have and always will. I hope you understand what I'm trying to do with the bin Moray, it's not much different than the original PWK design or the John Allen 555 design. I appreciate all you have pointed out to me and will continue to devour any and alll knowledge you pass on to me. 2S2P

I am really interested in reading this thread but I just can't make it through these single paragraphs. A friendly sugestion, please hit enter after break into smaller paragraphs.

[mustang guy]

Thank You Moray: Let's start from the onset. I finally was in a position to start building a set of LS's this summer , which was a huge step for me. As my research moved along with regards to the intended build, I finally managed to get my hands on a pair k401's as they are not readily available for reasonable prices plus shipping from the States. Once done then able to secure K55M's at a really great deal. My limited budget only allowed for that, however a pair k402' would have been great coupled with a pr of TAD's. That said, I did more serious research and came across KG4guy's 555 build (July 29 2010) Klipsch forum, which really intrigued me. With further research I realized I can build those bins easily. I'm a carpenter by trade and work at a home building supply store ( Totem ). This led me to KG4guy's experience with his build and to go active Xover, which I might add I've embraced whole heartedly. Never looking back now. Now I've aquired what I need to do to move to the final stages of this complete system rebuild. I have 3 amps ready to roll, the transport , the DSP, the horns, tweets. My final decision is to pick a bin/ woofer to land on. Expectations are to be as close to 400hz with the K401/K55m as I can get. My DSP is a Behringer DCX2496 and capable of extreme slopes ( 6-48db/octave). Let me qualify all this as I'm still in the early stages of understanding the DIY world ,however I research everday and I'm gaining knowledge daily. The build I proposed for the bin is somewhere between the original LS and the 555 bin that KG4guy built. Not to far off the mark to be a disaster, and just maybe great enough to be a keeper. That said I can easily go back to the drawing board and build again, and I love experimenting, always have and always will. I hope you understand what I'm trying to do with the bin Moray, it's not much different than the original PWK design or the John Allen 555 design. I appreciate all you have pointed out to me and will continue to devour any and alll knowledge you pass on to me. 2S2P

I am really interested in reading this thread but I just can't make it through these single paragraphs. A friendly sugestion, please hit enter after break into smaller paragraphs.

I doubt it would matter, as his browser is probably one of the incompatible ones.

To put new paragraphs, type this at the end of each paragraph: </p>

[2sick2pray]

Duly Noted and appreciate the advice. If I am to gain more knowledge and wisdom from the intended forum, Keep it short and sweet:). 2S2P

[Marvel]

Hey Bruce where did you find that I was looking too? Do you have the full drawing for the BT001 also be nice to have as we.. Thanks so much. Best regards Moray James.

Weird! It's labeled different... Is this what you were looking for?

bt02.pdf

[moray james]

Thanks Bruce that is a little different. Did you happen to find the cut list that goes along with this drawing?I wish that I could fly HR as this is a nice size and it would be very interesting to play with it to see what does what.

I would imagine that the Ciare engineers were much concerned with simplicity and cost of build. I would also imagine that with some modification to the design that the response could be smoothed out to match the larger version. The result would be a super Belle speaker which would out perform the La Scala with only a marginal increase in overall size. Anybody ot there really good with HR? I am sure there would be a lot of interested people. If I could I would but...

Best regards Moray James.

[ClaudeJ1]

I would imagine that the Ciare engineers were much concerned with simplicity and cost of build. I would also imagine that with some modification to the design that the response could be smoothed out to match the larger version.

I think the larger version is the way to go....I like the idea of a 70 Hz. cutoff....much less EQ and lower distortion....well worth the slightly larger footprint. If you build a tapped horn sub like mine (only $300 with Canadian lumber and a Lab12 driver), it will be hard pressed to go above 70 Hz. without some funky stuff.

BTW, if there is some interest, I can post my straight axis horn design and the Hornresp curve for it.

[2sick2pray]

I would imagine that the Ciare engineers were much concerned with simplicity and cost of build. I would also imagine that with some modification to the design that the response could be smoothed out to match the larger version.

I think the larger version is the way to go....I like the idea of a 70 Hz. cutoff....much less EQ and lower distortion....well worth the slightly larger footprint. If you build a tapped horn sub like mine (only $300 with Canadian lumber and a Lab12 driver), it will be hard pressed to go above 70 Hz. without some funky stuff.

BTW, if there is some interest, I can post my straight axis horn design and the Hornresp curve for it.

You read my mind Claude,very interested to see, as I'm keeping an open mind. That's the Volvotreter's 1 meter bass horn. I remember a reference to it some time back when I was reading another forums info.

[moray james]

Space; they did a tv show about that. Best regards Moray James.

[Guest " "]

the low end response of that clare W bin is taking an unnecessary hit due to not thinking thru the design fully. the exit path is a lot smaller than can be realized due to the attempt to use a 4 sided dog house. Using a 5 sided dog house would result in a larger exit path and a lower reaching spec. The clare W folks couldn't achieve a 3 sided doghouse becuase of the small cab size..the doghouse sides will hi the woofer long before the doghouse sides meet at the exit point. The Lascala resolved this by having a straight section after the first turn which the only purpose was to prevent the doghouse sides in being limited by woofer contact.

[ClaudeJ1]

I would imagine that the Ciare engineers were much concerned with simplicity and cost of build. I would also imagine that with some modification to the design that the response could be smoothed out to match the larger version.

I think the larger version is the way to go....I like the idea of a 70 Hz. cutoff....much less EQ and lower distortion....well worth the slightly larger footprint. If you build a tapped horn sub like mine (only $300 with Canadian lumber and a Lab12 driver), it will be hard pressed to go above 70 Hz. without some funky stuff.

BTW, if there is some interest, I can post my straight axis horn design and the Hornresp curve for it.

You read my mind Claude,very interested to see, as I'm keeping an open mind. That's the Volvotreter's 1 meter bass horn. I remember a reference to it some time back when I was reading another forums info.

I modeled the Volvotreter conical bass horn, whichis the simplest to build and has the same curve as the other fancier ones he tried, BUT it only goes to about 100 Hz., not 77 because it's too short. The main thing that LOWERS bass response of horn is LENGTH. A smaller throat increases the high frequency response a little more, which is why I prefer a rectangular throat over a square one like Volvotreter, which is what I did in my design of a larger one.

The best thing about Volvotreter's design is the rear chamber, which is optimum for an EVM 15L or B woofer. Dr. Bruce Edgar, a horn expert, really likes that driver, which is why I use it and it blows away all the others I have tried over the last 5 years in 3 different bass horns. I plan on building the one I designed this winter as I am moving to a place with a much larger space to accomodate a straight axis bass horn that sticks out of a corner about 5 feet (1.5 meters total). The ideal horn for that driver is hyperbolic (Bruce Edgar AND Hornresp agree), BUT it's pretty hard to build vs. a simple conical.

The only thing you give up is the high frequency response, which, according to Klipsch's Chief Engineer, Roy Delagado (designer of the K402 and so many other horns), you are better off with a fast, light compression driver in terms of perfomance, rather than a cone in plywood horns.......the super light compression driver with huge magnet wins every time, as long as it's not a high power application, which, of course, reproducing music in the home uses the least power.

If you want, I can Email you the Hornresp application which contains all of my models, so you can see exactly what I did, along with a scan of my pencil sketch of the design. You can look at the frequency response curve, which is very accurate vs. the measured values I have tried before on real cabinets like the LaScala, FH-1, and MWM. I think I have 23 different models simulated, including mine. Just PM me your Email address, and I will comply.

[ClaudeJ1]

Thanks Bruce that is a little different. Did you happen to find the cut list that goes along with this drawing?I wish that I could fly HR as this is a nice size and it would be very interesting to play with it to see what does what.

I would imagine that the Ciare engineers were much concerned with simplicity and cost of build. I would also imagine that with some modification to the design that the response could be smoothed out to match the larger version. The result would be a super Belle speaker which would out perform the La Scala with only a marginal increase in overall size. Anybody ot there really good with HR? I am sure there would be a lot of interested people. If I could I would but...

Best regards Moray James.

In bass horns, the bigger the better.........seriously. Otherwise there are too many compromises, including the LaScala, FH-1 etc. the larger Ciare is one foot longer than the FH-1, so it naturally goes lower. The mouth is small, like all compromised horns, but putting it in corners makes up for that.

The Jubilee is designed this way. It measures like a LaScala in 1/2 space (as told to me by Trey Cannon in Hope), but measures closer to a Khorn when placed in a corner. Roy said that a Jubillee would benefit from a large, 4 footmouth extension with a V in the center to improve the response below 60 Hz. I think that would get ridiculously large.

One is better off with a tapped horn to go from 15-50 Hz. and just buy a Crown XTi-1000 to do the sharp bandpass on it. Most folded horns do better in the MIDBASS rather than the extreme low bass (LaScala and FH-1 140 Hz. peak proves this), and if you want the utimate midbass/lower midrange horn, straight axis measures and sounds best...........but they do get long for true 60-80 Hz cutoff.

[Marvel]

Thanks Bruce that is a little different. Did you happen to find the cut list that goes along with this drawing?I wish that I could fly HR as this is a nice size and it would be very interesting to play with it to see what does what.

Exact cabinet as what you posted but different driver list.I couldn't find the BT001, and this one also doesn't have the second page.

Bruce

[moray james]

Thanks Bruce, I looked too and could not find a cut list either so I went to the ciare sire and eventually to the UK site and sent them a letter asking will see if they reply and will post if they do. Best regards Moray James.

[moray james]

Speakefritz I am sorry by I have some learning issues and I can't visualize what you are describing, three sides like a FH-1 I get but I am getting lost with four and five though I understand the concept of stretching the length of the horn to get closer to 1/4 wave length. Could you include a couple of sketches to aid the mentally spatial/visually impared? Is there anybody in Calgary who can fly HR and could give me a hands on demo to get me rolling? I would like nothing better than to fly HR and play with a design like this as I believe it could be much improved all be it at the cost of complexity. Thanks. Best regards Moray James.

[ClaudeJ1]

Speakefritz I am sorry by I have some learning issues and I can't visualize what you are describing, three sides like a FH-1 I get but I am getting lost with four and five though I understand the concept of stretching the length of the horn to get closer to 1/4 wave length. Could you include a couple of sketches to aid the mentally spatial/visually impared? Is there anybody in Calgary who can fly HR and could give me a hands on demo to get me rolling? I would like nothing better than to fly HR and play with a design like this as I believe it could be much improved all be it at the cost of complexity. Thanks. Best regards Moray James.

I can send you my Hornresp if you want I have 23 simulations on there.You can just look at the curves and other things to get acquainted with what it does for existing designs. You can play with the wizard and see what hapens when you change length, throat, back chamber etc.

[moray james]

You have a PM thanks Moray James.

[2sick2pray]

I would imagine that the Ciare engineers were much concerned with simplicity and cost of build. I would also imagine that with some modification to the design that the response could be smoothed out to match the larger version.

I think the larger version is the way to go....I like the idea of a 70 Hz. cutoff....much less EQ and lower distortion....well worth the slightly larger footprint. If you build a tapped horn sub like mine (only $300 with Canadian lumber and a Lab12 driver), it will be hard pressed to go above 70 Hz. without some funky stuff.

BTW, if there is some interest, I can post my straight axis horn design and the Hornresp curve for it.

Back from work, and this thread has begun to take off into an intriguing discussion between so many brilliant minds, collectively working out ideas and I can't believe I am witnessing all of this before my very eyes. I thank you all. Claude I am so interested in your design and will do the tapped horn sub design as I'm in the process now, of landing a gig, next door to my apartment, playing the one's and two's as they say in England. Smoooth Jazz and Blues and what ever I can toss into there. I have time to build the the perfect Lounge setup. New paragragh for those that tweet:) I will PM you and you to Moray, so as not to prolong the the thread with my ideas. One last question for all the members out there, you specifically Dave Hotsover, has anyone tried to design and build a K402 from wood(finger jointed , instead of cutout's from panels). Just an idea.2S2P

[Marvel]

Are you in England? Ah..... I also have the drawings for a set of Martin 215 MkII cabs. THey look pretty good, and also a set of the Martin 215 MkIII, which, of course, they say is better.

Bruce

[moray james]

Quote "so as not to prolong the the thread with my ideas"

That's kind of the idea of these things so you can air ideas and see what they look like and sound like and to get feedback to make them evolve or to convince you one way or another about them. There are guys on this forum who I am sure could have done what we have been jawing about already, I wish they would say hello.

Re the K402 I don't have one but it looks to me to be an injection mold? Claude you have a pair were they born in a mold? I imagine you could knock up a copy of a K402 but how close you could get it would be up to your skills. I think you would need to have one to hand to do a real good job. Go for it why not but see if you can touch a real one first. There is more there than meets the eye at first glance. I guess most of the good stuff is like that. Best regards Moray James.