moray james Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Claude is the rising response of the EVM 15L a benefit in the FH-1 cabinet? The EV has lower Qts than the 2226H but the JBL is clearly a monster with huge linear travel compared to the EV. It would seem that a lot of effort went into making the 2226H a very good low distortion woofer with very high power capability. The power is not a concern in my home situation but I would have thought that lower distortion and linear response would be a good thing. Am I missing something all together?I know where I can get my hands on a pair of the EVM15L but Not sure I know anyone with a pair of 2226H. A side by side would be interesting. I have no measurement gear but I could still have a good old fashioned listen. It is possible that at the kind of levels I would require that there might not be much difference between the two woofers I don't know. Does any body have any experience with these two drivers? Please let me know what you think. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2sick2pray Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Sorry but without a drawing I am just a bit confused are you saying that you are intending the horn to flair both horizontally and verticaly? In the La Scala the top and bottom panels are parallel to each other is this what you intend to do also? The picture of the 555 at the makers site looks like a La Scala with flaired side walls only. It sounds to me like you intend to keep the top and bottom panels parallel and that you want the side panels to flair out after the parallel wall section (after the first bend) as in the La Scala is this correct? I would think that the 555 arrangment with the sides flairing staight out from the corner would be more effective. The parallel wall section of the La Scala (as far as I can tell) is a usless section of the horn as it has zero expansion rate and is only there due to the initial size constraints of the design. As far as I know it offers no benefit. If I am wrong in this I would be happy to be corrected and learn how it is of benefit. The La Scala is 24 inches across the mouth the Belle is 28.5 inches across the mouth the SP1 is about 30 inches across the mouth and the FH-1 is 31.5 across the mouth with the 555 measuring 36.6 inches across the mouth. Not a lot of difference in mouth size from one end to the other. The Belle is truncated and has close to the same mouth area as the La Scala with the SP1 FH-1 and the 555 being larger. Bass response is going to be similar and a sub will be required no matter which cabinet design is chosen and the useful lower range is going to be similar also being around 70 - 80 Hz with a fairly good slope, all of these horn will be starting to loose output by 100 Hz. That's why I am thinking that the SP1 is a pretty fair compromise about the same width as a Belle though as deep as the La Scala and with out the dead zone in the La Scala and not quite so large as the 555. I would appreciate any information comments and or corrections from anyone if I am in error about any of this. Thanks and best regards Moray James. I always understood that the roof panels for the dog house were the ones that meet at the center of the horn. The top and bottoms were to stay as is, parallel and the sides to flare as per the 555 bins. As you pointed out Moray I'm convinced to stay with the 555 design and keep my imagination in check. Those 1504-4 are 4 ohms I'm guessing and like KG4guy used the Eminence 15 Kappas 4ohms on his 555 build. I could be talked into those. 2S2P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 attached is a variation on the theme but not one which interests me but I thought it might provide some ffood for thought. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 attached is a variation on the theme but not one which interests me but I thought it might provide some ffood for thought. Best regards Moray James. That is cool looking. It would look nice if a guy could radius the back corners, and the front flare. I don't know how it could be done, but it would look amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2sick2pray Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 attached is a variation on the theme but not one which interests me but I thought it might provide some ffood for thought. Best regards Moray James. Do you know who designed that? and by the measurements a large footprint (3'x4') looking so cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 The cabinet is a Martin 115. I have never used one but I understand it is a good bass bin. I prefer the clean simplicity of the Klipsch and peavey initial throat sections where as little as possible is done to the disturbe thepath of the sound, straight and clean then one 90 degree bend and out you go. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2sick2pray Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 The cabinet is a Martin 115. I have never used one but I understand it is a good bass bin. I prefer the clean simplicity of the Klipsch and peavey initial throat sections where as little as possible is done to the disturbe thepath of the sound, straight and clean then one 90 degree bend and out you go. Best regards Moray James. Now I think I understand what you're driving at Moray. I was hoping to do the same with my build and make the same 90^ turn as the original LS and come out to where the doghouse starts to flare and keep the same flare angle on the outside panels, which then makes a bend in the outside walls, instead of straight like the 555 bin(straight out from the rear corner back panel). Do you understand now what it is I'm trying to do? and if so will that then present a problem with the expansion of the sound? I'm all ears and one good eye:). 2S2P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 It would help me a lot if you could post a drawing or even just scan a sketch of what you intend to do otherwise I am affraid that I may start out on the wrong page. It would also be useful if you were to express you goals for this build. Just what do you want or expect the design to do? What range do you want the cabinet to cover and what levels do you expect. I know you are intending on using a K401 above your bass bin but where do you plan on crossing over to the K401? Klipsch cross at 400 Hz. If you can cross lower it would be better but would require a larger horn to achieve that. A crossover point of 300 - 350 Hz would be a better sounding option but as mentioned at the cost of a larger horn for the mid. Claude runs a Peavey FH-1 with EVM 15L woofers up to a Klipsch K402 (take a look at his Avatar) and has recently added a tweeter horn. Running below the Peavey is a big coffee table tapped horn. So you are looking at a four way also. I still see the Belle (non truncated) or an SP1 as a really fine compromise of size Vs bass extension. Personally I don't see the benefit of building as large as a 555 becaues I just don't see what you gain and the build cost is high to do it well and it offers not much more than smaller less expensive cabinet will provide. I would rather the SP1 or FH-1 with as large a horn on it as I can manage and save the rest of my floor space for my sub which is exactly what Claude has done. It makes good sense to me because of my limited floor space. If you have the floor space then a 555 works too. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 here is another vesrion of the W bin by celestion. This might be quite practical vertically positioned. This vesrion shows some stretch to the design. I am still of the belief that PWK and Peavey and other who built such horns got it more correct with the "bow tie" style bifurcated initial section for the initial throat expansion which would be easily incorporated into such a design as this.Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Here is one by Electrovoice see link above. Here is a recent patent on the concept http://www.google.com/patents?id=HPW5AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false Eliminator Series Eliminator 1 and 2 design.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Claude is the rising response of the EVM 15L a benefit in the FH-1 cabinet? The EV has lower Qts than the 2226H but the JBL is clearly a monster with huge linear travel compared to the EV. It would seem that a lot of effort went into making the 2226H a very good low distortion woofer with very high power capability. The power is not a concern in my home situation but I would have thought that lower distortion and linear response would be a good thing. Am I missing something all together?I know where I can get my hands on a pair of the EVM15L but Not sure I know anyone with a pair of 2226H. A side by side would be interesting. I have no measurement gear but I could still have a good old fashioned listen. It is possible that at the kind of levels I would require that there might not be much difference between the two woofers I don't know. Does any body have any experience with these two drivers? Please let me know what you think. Best regards Moray James. The EVM 15L response doesn't rise in the FH-1 cabinet. it just gives a up teeny bit on the bottom to give you an extra 4 db on the top at 400 Hz. The FH-1 naturally rolls off at about 300, so I'm crossing into the K402 at 320 Hz. The JBL is a very expensive driver and it's higher power handling and excusion capability only comes in handy for bass reflex, not for horns. The max. excursion on my EVM 15 L's according to the Hornresp model is less than 1 mm, even after bass boost at the bottom. I measure about 25 milli watts of power into the woofer, with about 10 milliwatts in the midrange/tweeter section. I'm currently running a $26 Lepai stereo chip amp with the 2020 Tripath chip into my woofer section from the Behringer, powered by a 3 amp Radio Shack power supply that was given to me, and it sounds really good. When PWK said: "What the world needs is a good 5 Watt amplifier," good, cheap chip amps were not yet available. One of the Klipsch engineers tested one of my Sonic Impacs in Indy, and he said it was a VERY GOOD 6 Watt amplifier, so I will be using those on the K402 and tweeter when I go full active Xover/PEQ/Time Alignement in my new digs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2sick2pray Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 Thank You Moray: Let's start from the onset. I finally was in a position to start building a set of LS's this summer , which was a huge step for me. As my research moved along with regards to the intended build, I finally managed to get my hands on a pair k401's as they are not readily available for reasonable prices plus shipping from the States. Once done then able to secure K55M's at a really great deal. My limited budget only allowed for that, however a pair k402' would have been great coupled with a pr of TAD's. That said, I did more serious research and came across KG4guy's 555 build (July 29 2010) Klipsch forum, which really intrigued me. With further research I realized I can build those bins easily. I'm a carpenter by trade and work at a home building supply store ( Totem ). This led me to KG4guy's experience with his build and to go active Xover, which I might add I've embraced whole heartedly. Never looking back now. Now I've aquired what I need to do to move to the final stages of this complete system rebuild. I have 3 amps ready to roll, the transport , the DSP, the horns, tweets. My final decision is to pick a bin/ woofer to land on. Expectations are to be as close to 400hz with the K401/K55m as I can get. My DSP is a Behringer DCX2496 and capable of extreme slopes ( 6-48db/octave). Let me qualify all this as I'm still in the early stages of understanding the DIY world ,however I research everday and I'm gaining knowledge daily. The build I proposed for the bin is somewhere between the original LS and the 555 bin that KG4guy built. Not to far off the mark to be a disaster, and just maybe great enough to be a keeper. That said I can easily go back to the drawing board and build again, and I love experimenting, always have and always will. I hope you understand what I'm trying to do with the bin Moray, it's not much different than the original PWK design or the John Allen 555 design. I appreciate all you have pointed out to me and will continue to devour any and alll knowledge you pass on to me. 2S2P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Take a look at John's site lots of good thinking and knowledge there. http://inlowsound.weebly.com/diy-16hz-sub-bass-horn.html The K40/401 is Throat dia=0.675" Mouth is 16.75 x 5.75 Lenght is 20.75 Cutoff frequency is about 300 Hz. The Peavey CH-1 is 14.5"x 28.5" x18" deep It will let you cross at a better frequency than the K400 will ahich will be better with any of the cabinets you might consider as none really want to fo a lot more than 300 Hz well. The CH-1 will also provide polar pattern control to a far lower frequency than the K400 can. You are welcome to borrow a pair to compare with the K400. I have drivers that you can try and you have dsp so you can provide CD compensation. At the same time you can compare the 22A to the 55M as a mid driver I think that you will be pleased with the 22A both as a mid driver and as a wide band driver. I wouls still be interested to see a sketch of your proposed cabinet design. As I said before I am not convinced that building a lsrgercabinet than a La Scala or an FH-1 will be of any real advantage, I wish that others would comment on this as I am wading into this myself. I find it very difficult to believe that one single 555 bass bin is only 2.5 db down at 40 Hz. Has anybody actually measured one of these? Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 it's not much different than the original PWK design or the John Allen 555 design. I appreciate all you have pointed out to me and will continue to devour any and alll knowledge you pass on to me. 2S2P http://www.dmcbean.bigblog.com.au/index.do All you have to do is go in there and put in the numbers from the driver parmaters and up to 5 progressive linear sections (Z) (by XY area!) of the bass horn you are building. Since you are a fellow Canadian, you should be comfortable with Metric units and conversions from inches. It makes a 2D area drawing of your 3D area dimensions and gives you a frequency response plot, excursion, power handling, etc.......I base everything on 2.83 Volts, which is 1 Watt into 8 ohms. I seriously recommend doing this because it will allow you to modify and improve the response of the bin BEFORE PEQ. Why ram EQ into the thing when you can do it the lumber stage? It lowers the distortion and flattens the response. In terms of intestinal fortitude, time invested, and lumber purchased, I admire what KG4GUY did, but he did so without any measurement or simulation, which would make his bin design a bit suspect...............no offense meant, truly. I have designed a straight axis bass horn for the EVM 15L woofer that is flat from 60-600 Hz., but I have not built it. It was inspired by Volvotreter's 1 Meter bass horn with the 15 L, except I made mine longer and with a slot instead of a square. If you want the smoothest response possible with the greatest detail, then you need to avoid folding..........where you can look down the throat of the bass horn and see the center of the driver. I owned Khorns for 33 years, various LaScalas, I helped build some Jubillee cabinets, etc. and I still think that all horns should be unfolded to as low of a frequency as possible. You have time delay capability so you can align all the horn mouths physically, and electronically adjust for the distance differences. Since you have all the components in place for truly optimizing your fist DIY effort, why not go a step or two further? All it will cost you is time and more floor space, if you have it. Let me know if you need some help with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 more (spin on LS design) The bin you show has a 68.9 Hz. cutoff, abit better than a LaScala, but I'm not sure who makes the driver, since it seems to be Italian. The Peavey FH-1 is good to about 90 Hz, the LaScala is goot to about 100 Hz. before rolloff, so this one is pretty darn good. Plus if one were to upgrade to K402 horns, the width would match perfectly, so this is a good find, Moray. This would be my second choice after a straight axis horn.........better than LS or FH-1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Thanks Claude here is the driver manufacturer they make solid stuff. ciare.com Best regards Moray James. PS: this version is just a tad smaller than the Belle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2sick2pray Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 more (spin on LS design) The bin you show has a 68.9 Hz. cutoff, abit better than a LaScala, but I'm not sure who makes the driver, since it seems to be Italian. The Peavey FH-1 is good to about 90 Hz, the LaScala is goot to about 100 Hz. before rolloff, so this one is pretty darn good. Plus if one were to upgrade to K402 horns, the width would match perfectly, so this is a good find, Moray. This would be my second choice after a straight axis horn.........better than LS or FH-1. I cannot stop saying Thank You So Much (Moray/Claude/KG4guy/Speakerfritz/ and all the members of the forum). I've been reading all that you have posted since last nite. I promise to learn how to use Hornsrep and go from there, and Moray I'll figure out how to scale out a drawing and hopefully attach it to a post for your's and Claude's perspective. Moray, I appreciate your offer to try out the horns and drivers, it was all I could do not to drive to Calgary, last nite and show up on your doorstep, unannounced:):). The last bin design(Italian driver)you gentlemen referring to is which one? 2S2P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Here's the whole drawing... The PW 455 driver is a little over 200 euros. Bruce bt01.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Hey Bruce where did you find that I was looking too? Do you have the full drawing for the BT001 also be nice to have as we.. Thanks so much. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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