Does Speaker Stand Solidness Matter with Klipsch Cornwalls?

[Evolvo]

I have a pair of klipsch Cornwalls that are on dinky stands that I made out of two pieces of MDF and 2 2x4 legs. They are probably about 18" high and weigh 12 pounds and the speakers pretty much wobble if you give them a little nudge, they are not so wobbly they could potentially fall over, nor do you see them move when playing music. The reason I have them on stands is because I have a theater with a second row that is elevated and that is where I sit.

My question is am I losing anything from having the speakers on crappy stands that wobble? Could I potentially be losing highs or bass because of the wobble? I read that lots of people who have bookshelf's will fill their stands with sand to tighten up the sound. So I'm wondering if I would benefit from building some speakers stands that are essentially a huge box filled with sand. Or are the Cornwalls so powerful that they can just perform no matter what they sit on?

[T.H.E. Droid]

You are losing bass response, but only from them being placed higher above the floor. I'm guessing that if you are using them mainly for home theater mains and have a subwoofer, they likely aren't allowed to produce their full bass range anyway so it shouldn't make much difference. You've already surmised that because of the great directionality and projection of the horns, you don't want the speakers blocked by the front row seats. And learn to disregard those audiophile myths you hear. Most are impossible to prove scientifically and exist only in the minds of the poor soul who doesn't know any better.

[moray james]

Yes stands will help and yes they need to be solid, easiest way is to make a three point mount so the speaker is always stable two points to the front one in the centre at the back. This is then very easy to adjust for right to left and front to back. Time to do some experimenting and listening. Good luck best regards Moray James.

[Chris A]

My question is am I losing anything from having the speakers on crappy stands that wobble? Could I potentially be losing highs or bass...?

You're losing bass by not having the speakers on the floor.

[EDIT: You're probably losing about an octave of bass in your Cornwalls by not having them in the corners on the floor vs. on stands not in the corners - Cornwalls were designed to be placed on the floor and their backs at least against one wall.

If you want to minimize the loss of bass, you need to eliminate any cavities under your speakers - i.e., any air spaces from the bottom of the speaker to the floor. You'll still lose some bass, but at least it won't be as great as putting them on stands with legs. The back of the speakers need to be against the wall or within an inch or so of touching it. You can tilt them back so that the tweeters/midranges are aimed toward the center of the room in order to regain hf coverage, just like the Heresy risers do.]

An article by PWK on the subject:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/5/1358189/Corner%20Speaker%20Placement%20excerpts%20PWK.pdf

Chris

[ZombieWoof]

So Paul is saying that the woofer is best left near to the floor ? ? ?

My question is am I losing anything from having the speakers on crappy stands that wobble?

You're losing bass by not having the speakers on the floor. An article by PWK on the subject:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/5/1358189/Corner%20Speaker%20Placement%20excerpts%20PWK.pdf

Chris

I was thinking I would raise the woofer in my CW bass bin to the top of the cabinet , So I surmise that would be a BAD Idea ? ? ? ( the horn section is going in a tophat )

Now if one where to have a speaker mounted on the ceiling the woofer should be nearest to the ceiling ? ? ? & the horn section below that ? ? ?

Not meaning to HiJack the thread here , but I had to ask ...,

[Evolvo]

I appreciate the comments although I don't care that I lose bass because they are higher off the ground as I can't help that given I have 2 tier seating in my movie theater. To be perfectly honest the bass I get is ridiculous and shakes my whole house. I simply care whether I could be getting more clarity out of the speakers at the height I have them at with more solid stands. At this point I surmise that my stands probably should be sturdier and weigh close to or more than my speakers so I've already started the process of building more rigid stands as I really can't go wrong considering it will only cost me $40 to build box stands and fill them with sand.

As someone suggested I would think think that the energy from the woofer is being used to create speaker sway rather than bass, so I likely might be losing something. Even if I'm not it still feels good to have sturdy solid stands.

For those of you who have standards on placement I say put them where they sound best and try all positions. Given my situation there is no way my speakers would sound better on the ground as it would be like listening to speakers standing up. If you think speakers sound better hanging from the ceiling go for it and try it out, if sounds better than other positions you've tried then you've got a winner. Everyone seems to have the best possible solution. The best possible solution is the one that sounds the best after you have tried all positions, all these so called rules of placement are simply guides and estimations to assist in proper placement.

Thanks.

[Chris A]

...I would think think that the energy from the woofer is being used to create speaker sway rather than bass, so I likely might be losing something.

I don't think that this is the issue.

For those of you who have standards on placement I say put them where they sound best and try all positions. Given my situation there is no way my speakers would sound better on the ground as it would be like listening to speakers standing up. If you think speakers sound better hanging from the ceiling go for it and try it out, if sounds better than other positions you've tried then you've got a winner. Everyone seems to have the best possible solution. The best possible solution is the one that sounds the best after you have tried all positions, all these so called rules of placement are simply guides and estimations to assist in proper placement.

Thanks.

It sounds like you've answered your own question in a way that you wanted it answered...[:S]

Just let us know if you need any more advice...[]

Chris

[Chris A]

I was thinking I would raise the woofer in my CW bass bin to the top of the cabinet...So Paul is saying that the woofer is best left near to the floor?

Yes.

Now if one were to have a speaker mounted on the ceiling, the woofer should be nearest to the ceiling...& the horn section below that?

Yes, if the ceiling is solid plaster or drywall, i.e., not a drop ceiling with floating ceiling tiles.

Chris

[ZombieWoof]

I was thinking I would raise the woofer in my CW bass bin to the top of the cabinet...So Paul is saying that the woofer is best left near to the floor?

Yes.

Now if one were to have a speaker mounted on the ceiling, the woofer should be nearest to the ceiling...& the horn section below that?

Yes, if the ceiling is solid plaster or drywall, i.e., not a drop ceiling with floating ceiling tiles.

Chris

ThanX Chris , I had been told that it was best to have the woofer near the floor & then told it was not a issue , Nice that you found the PK write-up . as for the ceiling speakers I have heights & wides that are to be mounted up on the ceiling aimed down at the M L P in a 9 channel HT set-up . I was thinking that the woofer needed to be nearest the ceiling wall (sheetrock). these are going to be CS-1.5 type clones after some modding of the Crites design . A marriage of a ElipTrac-400 horn & a 12" Crites woofer with a ALK network ThanX again for the feedback
Mike

[Evolvo]

Cask05

You essentially disagree with my logic by telling me that I've answered my question in a way that I wanted it answered, then you go edit your posting to essentially agree with what I said, which is it?

My whole point was that I though having bigger sturdier stands would benefit me and in your Edited post above you concur by saying a bigger stand with more space underneath it would help to increase bass. So I'm not sure why your saying I'm doing what I want to hear. How am I suppose to know what right anyway with all you guys arguing, one person saying it does and another it doesn't. So it simply comes down to do I think having wobbly stands is bad?, yes. Do I know if it will help with bass? who knows can't get a straight answer, so build them and hope for the best. I stated in my response that I didn't care ultimately whether it created a difference in sound, I just simply wanted to know if did it as I wanted better stands regardless. So you were wrong before you adjusted your answer and thought more about what you were saying.

I think some of you guys like arguing so much that you answer before you even have a chance to fully come up with a good answer. You also argue so much that you come in my listing and hijack it and start talking about speakers on floors when I never asked anyone whether I should put speakers on the floor. If you want to argue go somewhere else. I need real assistance not flip flopping answers, just cause you want so badly to disprove someone.

[Mighty Favog]

Yes, a speaker will produce less bass if it wobbles (sways, rocks...whatever).

If the cabinet moves backwards, that's a soundwave that's not totally moving forwards.

[DavidF]

The speakers will resonate the same whether on the floor or up on stands.

Having a speaker firmly set to the floor often affords the means to shift some of the resonance away from the cabinet to the floor (assuming a wooden floor). That can remove some of mud out of the lower mids. Perhaps that will clear up the bass response by not actually altering the bass response but rather by removing some grunge in a range above the bass. Whether audible or not is going to be arguable.

Setting the Cornwall up on wobbly stands can work two ways against you. First it may not act as a resonance sink like a firm fitting on the floor. Second small gaps between the floor and stands, and then between the stands and cabinets, may cause a secondary source of sound from the actual vibrating contact points.

So, my first concern is a stable platform. As mentioned by Moray a three point stand is a good way to get even pressure points at the floor and cabinet. You need to factor in stability control, however.

Building a stand with mass such as a sand-filled idea will have mixed results. Unless you have the means to actually measure progress. I would concentrate on a stand that is made of sturdy materials with good joinery technique to avoid creating a “new” source of sound.

[moray james]

no reason you cannot make ther posts of the stand hollow then you can easily adjust both the amount and or the type of fill. Best regards Moray James.

[Evolvo]

Thanks for the helpful advice from all. So I've finished the stands and they are probably about 23" tall and filled with 100# of sand each (they still have space for another 25# each. I do feel like the bass and sound overall has tightened up, but the bass null I had in the middle of the room got bigger. It literally almost seems like there is no bass in the middle of the room and as you go towards the walls it seems like there is a 10 - 12 db increase maybe more. I think before the stands were about 2" lower and this maybe the difference. So my question is what can I do to get more even bass or more bass to the middle of the room. My room is 23 X 13 and the speakers are on the smaller of the sides of the wall. The speakers are 2' from the back of the wall and up against the side walls towed in about 15 degrees. My seating position is probably exactly in the middle of the room. I have 2 2x4 bass traps on the walls horizontal to my listening position at head height and Huge one in one of the back corners of the room that is literally 5' wide and 7' tall all made out of Insulation I believe R39.

I think moving them back towards the wall would create more bass, but would it help with the null? Would lowering the stands a bit lower the nulls? What about bass traps, if so where should I put the traps, possibly back wall or behind speakers. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Mighty Favog]

I moved my CW's as close to the walls as possible, thus why it's called a Corn(er)Wall. Because it was intended for the corner or the wall. The bass null that was right at my listening position has either moved or is gone completely.

[Evolvo]

I moved my CW's as close to the walls as possible, thus why it's called a Corn(er)Wall. Because it was intended for the corner or the wall. The bass null that was right at my listening position has either moved or is gone completely.

Holyshiz!!! Moved them to the corner and no more null the bass is in the center and the null is on the outside. This sounds fantastic. I've should have known this but didn't realize it would be this massive of a difference. Unreal bass. If I put them on the floor I'd probably blow my house up.

Thanks Favog and everyone else.

[Mighty Favog]

That's awesome news!! Take a look at this thread, it might help too.

CLICK HERE

[T.H.E. Droid]

.....As someone suggested I would think think that the energy from the woofer is being used to create speaker sway rather than bass, so I likely might be losing something. Even if I'm not it still feels good to have sturdy solid stands..

We go back full circle to people giving advice who don't seem to have any understanding of physics. Speakers work in the first place by creating a force between the voice coil and magnet. Because the mass of the voice coil and cone is so small compared to the speaker frame/magnet and speaker structure, almost all the force is translated into cone movement. (The rest is lost in friction and heat.) To be able to cause the loudspeaker to rock (especially at woofer frequencies) wouild require a huge electronmagnet and thousands of watts of energy. Can an exploding firecracker taped to the side of an engine block cause it to move? Same principle and about the same differential.

Sure, having a stable structure is a good idea. Who wants to tip a Cornwall over on their foot or on a kid? But this concept of a 2 ounce voice coil and cone making a 60 pound speaker move is enough to make Sir Isaac roll over in his grave.

[Evolvo]

.....As someone suggested I would think think that the energy from the woofer is being used to create speaker sway rather than bass, so I likely might be losing something. Even if I'm not it still feels good to have sturdy solid stands..

We go back full circle to people giving advice who don't seem to have any understanding of physics. Speakers work in the first place by creating a force between the voice coil and magnet. Because the mass of the voice coil and cone is so small compared to the speaker frame/magnet and speaker structure, almost all the force is translated into cone movement. (The rest is lost in friction and heat.) To be able to cause the loudspeaker to rock (especially at woofer frequencies) wouild require a huge electronmagnet and thousands of watts of energy. Can an exploding firecracker taped to the side of an engine block cause it to move? Same principle and about the same differential.

Sure, having a stable structure is a good idea. Who wants to tip a Cornwall over on their foot or on a kid? But this concept of a 2 ounce voice coil and cone making a 60 pound speaker move is enough to make Sir Isaac roll over in his grave.

I'm not giving advise I was giving my thoughts on what I thought might be happening to get opinions. Ur just another guy who enjoys arguing. I think ur wrong anyway. How could the stability of the structure it's sitting on not make even a minute differences. Places sell hundred dollars stands to help with resonances and quality of bass and sound. Speaker cabs are built thick and strong for a reason so they don't resonate so much. So how could a wobbly stand not matter. I'm not saying its major but there could be potentially audible effect at some level. We reinforce cabs, why not stands. Many people including other high level audio guys would disagree.

I know u guys like arguing so I hope u take the bait and indulge heavily. I honestly could care less, most of audio is a bunch of guys pretending to hear things they can't anyway. I'm probably guilty sometimes but atleast I can admit it. Lol if it makes u feel good build it. If u think it sounds better buy it.

[T.H.E. Droid]

.... but the bass null I had in the middle of the room got bigger. It literally almost seems like there is no bass in the middle of the room and as you go towards the walls it seems like there is a 10 - 12 db increase maybe more. .....I think moving them back towards the wall would create more bass, but would it help with the null? Would lowering the stands a bit lower the nulls? What about bass traps, if so where should I put the traps, possibly back wall or behind speakers.

That's a very abnormal result that sounds exactly like reversed phase on your Cornwalls. You need to make sure everything is phased properly. While having some variation in bass over the room isn't unusual at all, the "hole in the middle" is a classic problem. Also, correct phase at the speaker terminals can still go wrong if the speakers have been reworked and woofers are misphased when reconnecting to crossovers.