mpurvis Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 I have had a set of Klipsch speakers for many years but I am not sure of the model. I think that they are Heresy. The box is not vented, 15.5" x 21.25" x 13.25" (wxhxd), and contains the K-77M tweeter, the K-52H midrange and the K-22E woofer. Interestly, there is no damping material in the box and the drivers themselves are mounted on the back of the speaker panel which I have read is not the preferred method of mounting. The boxes are showing their age and I was toying with the idea of building new boxes but I don't know whether to duplicate the existing ones or maybe use a different design. Can anyone help me with the model number or suggestions for the boxes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Those dimensions match up to the dimensions of the flush-front birch plywood Decorator style HDBR Heresys...as produced up until 1977. If you were to opt to build new cabinets for them, build them exactly to the INTERIOR dimensions of the previous cabinets...and mount the speakers to the fronts the SAME WAY...in the SAME exact positions...be sure to ENSURE that the cabinets are air-tight, also...that is an IMPORTANT part of the design!! Your woofers and horn lenses are designed to be mounted in the manner in which they are already mounted!! Flange mounting holes on woofer and horn lenses are not for mounting as drop-into-the front components!!...but must be mounted to front from INSIDE the cabinet!! Hope this helps you some. ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpurvis Posted June 12, 2002 Author Share Posted June 12, 2002 Thanks for the info. When I saw how the horns and woofer were mounted, I had wondered if they were a true Klipsch or whether someone had built them and used Klipsch speakers. Glad to hear that the speakers are supposed to be mounted this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Mpurvis... In your other post you said your serial number had an "X" in it...that would mean your Heresys are made in 1982...and therefore are not the flush-front decorator models. I had assumed that they were, but the serial number, and the fact they have the K-77M tweeter negates them being from prior to 1978 in manufacture. See the other post for more info about how to determine the style of heresy you have. If you still want to build replacement cabinets for these, I will be happy to give you any help you need in figuring out the proper method!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 I'm confused as to what "flush-front" means in the visual sense. Does that imply that the motorboard with or w/o grill is flush with the outer edge of cabinets? Is their a relationship to removal vs. non-removal grills? Just having a bit of difficulty with the term vs. the actual appearance of the cabinet front. Wes ------------------ KLIPSCH IS MUSICf> My Systems f>s>c> This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 06-12-2002 at 06:32 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpurvis Posted June 12, 2002 Author Share Posted June 12, 2002 It would appear that I have the HWL model. They have mitered corners, lacqered black walnut finish and an inset black motorboard. I am quite curious about the lack of damping material which is commonly used in sealed boxes and also the fact that the speakers are mounted to the back of the motorboard. The motorboard creates an abrupt transition from the nice curve of the horn to the right angle edge of the wood. Do you know what they were built this why. I noticed that the magnet and diaphragm part of the speakers are too big to go through the opening in the motorboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 They were built that way for over 20 years...there is little actual effect from the transition of the horn curve to the opening in the motorboard...matter of fact...it probably gives a bit more directivity, even though there is a bit of dispersion loss!! Heresys never really NEEDED the "sound damping" material...which is actually not a damping...but a way to fool the drivers into thinking the box has MORE interior VOLUME!! The "air-tight" design of the Heresy allows a short-throw voice coil woofer to give bigger sound without destroying itself...pretty simple!!...less voice coil excursion, but more decibels of sound!!...kinda like a shock-absorber!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Thanks for the PM's Wes ------------------ KLIPSCH IS MUSICf> My Systems f>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpurvis Posted June 13, 2002 Author Share Posted June 13, 2002 This forum has really opened my eyes. I always knew I had a great pair of speakers but I had not realized how much value they still had. I think that it would be foolish to build new boxes since they would no longer be a true Klipsch. Instead, I think that I will build a slip-on outer case using 1/4" cabinet grade plywood. This way I can improve the appearance, match my other furniture and still keep the original boxes intact and protected from further damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 mpurvis, Look at it this way...If you were to buy those Heresys NEW today it would set you back over 1100 bucks!! And they probably retailed for around 650-700 bucks when they were built!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 "the drivers themselves are mounted on the back of the speaker panel which I have read is not the preferred method of mounting." The Heresy II has a flush mount tweeter. You can flush mount the K77 in your original Heresy or Cornwall with a pair of Klipsch pn/ #061105 Z-brackets, $8.00 each. These come standard on the Klipschorn and the Belle. Woodworking required. Caulk after mounting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Reed Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 I remember asking PWK himself about the difference between "front mounting" and "back mounting". After much discussion on the subject, he said, "There's not a dime's worth of difference between the two." Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 I don't mean to be rude, but when I first met PWK in 1980 he no longer had much interest in audio. His sales reps were able to get him to visit important dealerships that were near old railroad rolling stock. I guess it was over his objections that they changed the Klipschorn, Belle, Cornwall, and Heresy to a flush front mount design? And all subsequent designs? Not only does it sound better, it measures better. Cost is the primary reason it was not done earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 I would have to agree with the sound assessment merely from an engineering standpoint. The horn has a certain contour for a reason and abrupt parallel sides in the flare isn't going to help... standing waves and resonance you know? This message has been edited by SOUNDJUNKIE on 06-15-2002 at 09:58 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 Looks like a pizzing contest is about to start up over which mounting technique is best...but first let's take a bit of common sense testing here: FACT: The Heresys and Cornwalls were built with rear mounting for over 20 years with no problems with standing waves and such due to rear mounting the horn lenses and woofers. The LaScalas are STILL built this way, and have none of those problems. So are the K-horns and Belles. FACT: When the changeover to MDF occurred for the fronts of the Heresy and Cornwall models, there was a problem with the APPEARANCE of routed MDF openings, so the mounting from the front was adopted. This also kept the labor cost down because NO puttying of voids in plys and extra sanding of sharp routed openings and such was required in the sanding room, anymore...I was still there when the prototype stage of this mounting change was being worked out...and remember it well!! One of the reasons for the original demise of the flush-front models of the Heresy and Cornwall decorator cabinets was due to this extra labor in the sanding room, too. Once all the models got black-painted fronts with grille cloth covering them, it cut down on this sanding room cost some too!! One of the big issues raised was the changes needed for the woofer flange and gasket, and the mid and tweeter horn flanges...in order to accept this new mounting style and to provide for counter-sunk screwhead designs needed. The black screws were gonna be more expensive too!! Another savings point in the changeover had to do with final assembly labor costs...it was more time consuming for the final assembler to "feel" for alignment of the horn-mouthes to the routed opening while tightening the screws down from the back of the cabinet...the change to drop-into-the-front components saved considerable time here!! It also saved some on materials for the sides and top/bottom materials, since the interior volume could remain the same with less overall depth to the cabinet(1/2"-3/4" less depth). In other words, the changeover was for a SAVINGS in labor, primarily, with some savings in cost of materials used...with the added ability of being able to use the marketing hype of "less interference with dispersion" for the new method of mounting!! Pretty simple!! FACT: High frequencies go in a straight line, so the tweeter's horn MOUTH flare for dispersion actually does very little to disperse the frequencies...therefore it makes no difference HOW it is mounted!! Pretty much the same for the Mid-horn lens!! And the loss in dispersion accounts for a very minor percentage, anyway. Besides, when you have a grille cloth panel covering these components, it automatically causes some loss in dispersion, anyway!! FACT: Mpurvis' Heresys have components designed to be mounted from the rear of the speaker front. His woofers are NOT the correct gasket/mounting flange design for front mounting. His mid-horn mouth flange is ALSO not the correct design...NEITHER is his tweeter horn mouth flange!! To properly mount them from the front will require him to buy new components, OR to modify the existing components/and or do some serious woodworking to ensure the proper fit required for the horn lenses. Either way, his woofers will have to be changed out to ones with different flange/gasket designs if he wants them to mount from the front, too!! If one still wishes to argue this point, then feel free to do so...I just wanted to wake some of you up to the REALITY of the situation!! The actual GAIN in dispersion characteristics IS MEASURABLE, but likely not enough for the average listener to notice!! I am sure that if PWK was still alive and asked this question today, his exact words would STILL be: "It doesn't make a dime's worth of difference"...since that was one of his favorite responses to debates like this, anyway!! Why do you think he continued to use simple zip-cord in wiring speakers? Because: "It doesn't make a dime's worth of difference"...even though alot of people spend some MAJOR big bucks on stuff like fancy speaker wire...LOL! ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 06-16-2002 at 10:51 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 Having a bad day?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 Nope, not having a bad day at all...just stating some COMMON SENSE facts...the kind of facts I see little of at times... ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 quote: Originally posted by HDBRbuilder: Nope, not having a bad day at all...just stating some COMMON SENSE facts...the kind of facts I see little of at times... You REALLY sure? This message has been edited by SOUNDJUNKIE on 06-17-2002 at 07:00 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 "HDBRbuilder Looks like a pizzing contest is about to start up over which mounting technique is best...but first let's take a bit of common sense testing here: FACT: The Heresys and Cornwalls were built with rear mounting for over 20 years with no problems with standing waves and such due to rear mounting the horn lenses and woofers. The LaScalas are STILL built this way, and have none of those problems. So are the K-horns and Belles. " The Klipschorn and Belle have flush mounted K77 tweeters. Klipsch calls them 'Z-brackets' and they are Klipsch part number 061105, $8.00 each. Of course I called Klipsch to verify the part number and price before I posted the data earlier. It is very easy to change the Heresy and Cornwall if they have removable grills. If yours don't it will be more work. Because of the wavelengths involved at the crossover frequency there is little or no benefit to front mounting the other parts. "It also saved some on materials for the sides and top/bottom materials, since the interior volume could remain the same with less overall depth to the cabinet(1/2"-3/4" less depth)." When the flush front models were changed over to the drop in front models the top/bottom and sides had to be made larger to keep the interior volume the same, it was the front that got smaller. "Besides, when you have a grille cloth panel covering these components, it automatically causes some loss in dispersion, anyway!!" While grill cloth shows some attenuation of the highs like you would expect, most do not effect the dispersion. Some perforated metal/and/or/plastic and foam designs can actually increase dispersion. The JBL L166 was an example of such a perforated design, and the L100 was an example of such a foam design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 DJK, With the horizontal dispersion of the tweeter so little affected by its wide horn mouth flare there, and since high frequencies tend to go in a straight line, there is no need to mount its horn mouth flush with the front...it really accomplishes little or nothing...except it is more cost effective since it is easier for the folks to install the tweeters into an already inset face than it is to install them having to FEEL for proper alignment as they tighten down the screws from behind...that is very time consuming!! You are also confused by what I said about the savings in materials when they went from rear motorboard mounting of the components to flush frontal mounting of them. The interior volume of the cabinet got larger because the components were moved forward 3/4"...and this allowed for a reduction in the depth dimensions of the cabinet design in order to retain the same interior volume...but this was not done...instead, they used a thicker back of 3/4" MDF to make up the difference(whereas the prior back was 3/8" plywood). Therefore the outside cabinet dimensions remained virtually the same as before. But that use of MDF for the back was still a savings over the use of the plywood originally used!...Just as the use of MDF for the fronts was a savings over 3/4" plywood previously used there. And ,of course, add in the savings in having to sand the routed openings in the fronts on the earlier style mounting. As for the foam grilles, Klipsch doesn't and never has used them ...so that has nothing to do with anything here. Fact is, with grille CLOTH panels over the components, some muffling and lessening of dispersion DOES occur...pretty simple!! Fact is, those grilles on the JBL L-100 Century...friggen waffle-molded ORANGE foam stuff...were ugly as hell...why do you think I bought the JBL 4311WX monitors instead?...they were the same damned speaker for all intents and purposes...just a different woofer to midrange crossover point!! LOL! What it all boils down to is that the savings in labor cost and in SOME material cost is why the change occurred...pretty simple!! Otherwise the change would never have been made. PWK never lost interest in audio...he had just LOST HEART in working for a company that wasn't his anymore...and for a CEO who literally told him "What you think or want doesn't matter here anymore"...and he felt that his engineering staff could handle most things by 1980, anyway. He was in the process of finishing with a major power struggle over the control of the company in 1980...one which he won!!...But I think it was late 1981 before he actually had the control of the company again!! After regaining control of the company, he got right back into working on audio!! It wasn't so much that he WANTED only to go places where he could also indulge his love of trains, as much as it was that Bob Moers (the CEO) wanted to get him away from the company as much as possible while the power struggle was going on...and Bob "sweetened" the deal enough that PWK would go on those trips in those days, instead of hanging around "in Bob's way"!! Remember...I WAS THERE EVERYDAY during that time period...and I saw alot of things that went on that are not exactly public knowledge nor SHOULD EVER BE public knowledge!! Nuff said!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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