Klipschorn room treatment suggestions?

[bassace]

I have a rectangular room that's 15X24, with a small extruding closet in the left rear (as facing the system when listening, behind my left shoulder for reference), and a couch about halfway back. No real architectural amonalies, just four windows and three doors. No really obvious acoustic concerns, just looking for some nominal optimization (just kinda fantastic is all I'm striving for!) Horns are in the corners on the short wall (I will try the long wall set-up some day for fun). What and where should the treatments be and where should they go based on my room dimensions? (No brainer solution: first reflection points/mirror trick, well noted, I haven't even begun experimenting with Owens-Corning and building frames, still gathering first-hand experiences with Khorn/similar room combos). Currently I use an area rug and lots of diffraction, as the room is a recording studio as well as a listening room and vintage gear storage area where the music gear and audio shelving line the walls. I do lots of inline recording, not much micing, so from that perspective my room acoustics are not deceptive or troublesome. Pics? No camera! I can't listen to it, so it's virtually useless, except maybe in cases like this! [] Thanks for responses from mostly similar working arrangements.

[wuzzzer]

What is it about the sound the way it currently is that you don't like?

[Chris A]

Have you seen this thread-- http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/154887/1631048.aspx ...?

I have a similar setup and longer room (you didn't mention your ceiling height). See my profile pic: I'm now using Klipschorn Jubilees instead of Klipschorns.

If you have a 8' ceiling, diffusers or absorption on the ceiling at the first reflection point might help, but the biggest single deal is getting anything that reflects sound (except the smooth walls - no brick masonry, etc.) away from the first meter or so of the exit of the midrange horns (which is where most of you're issues will be) - including and most importantly the ceiling and floor. Toe-in/toe-out can be accommodated using false corners (as you've probably read about). Proper toe-in is a really big deal.

Second - if you have access to a good active digital speaker processor (DC-One, SP2060, etc.), then tri-amping and doing delay correction on them will also be a really big deal. This will allow you to listen to your Khorns in that room without the issues of bass bin and midrange time misalignment wrt to the tweeter, which pushes you back away from the best listening position(s) for good imaging.

EDIT: Here is a link to the settings for triamping Khorns using a Yamaha SP2060 digital crossover: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/156476/1653578.aspx#1653578

I'll try to post some more this evening (CDT).

Chris

[bassace]

Wuzzer - none! I'm just attempting to glean some wisdom that doesn't require a huge grasp of math and physics! No glaring problems, just looking for a bit of nominal optimization (as my post stated). Thanks for your concern in replying.

Chris - thanks for your help and links. I may end up doing some inexpensive absorption placements and see if I have any wow moments of enlightenment breakthrough! [] My ceiling is 8 feet high with a six-inch pitch across the short side (15 feet long) to facilitate rain run-off on the roof (my father built the room as an add-on in the early 60's). Thanks again for your objective stuff.

[garyrc]

If you haven't seen Artto's Klipschorn Room (a very long, updated
thread posted on this forum) you should. My hunch is following Chris's
advice for the first meter, plus floor and near ceiling, then following
Artto's pattern for the rest of the room would be about as good as you
could do. There are now alternatives to the polycylindrical "Bonner"
diffusers Artto used, but I honestly don't know which (including the
polycylindricals) are better. The research online into various kids of
diffusers doesn't impress me.

Avoid too much absorption. IMO
stores want to sell you too much, at least for Klipschorns. Listen for a
few weeks first, then a few more weeks after putting in the minimum
absorption on the ceiling at the first reflection points, on the floor
(carpet), and on the first meter of wall that Chris recommends.

[consistent]

Welcome

Lots of info on the net about reflective/deflective/absorptive/diffractive materials. For me was ensuring the Khorns were tight in corners and pointed into within 1 metre forward of your listening position. My room was 15' x 12', much smaller, I used the short wall, lots of bass traps and diffractive material and yes mid range is very important but if you get overblown bass you may as well listen to music with your head in a bucket of water!!

All good fun...don't take math too seriously, it is important but most times your ears are your best guide, they start where math leaves off!

Good luck

Steve

[consistent]

ooops....try something like this as a guide http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

[Chris A]

ooops....try something like this as a guide http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

Steve,

Did you intend to reference that document--since it shows speakers located out on the floor of the room away from corners? That guide shows a typical "tower speaker" location for HT setup, which doesn't make use of the free corner loading that you get with any corner horn. I believe that the OP owns Khorns.

The reference that you find in the third posting from the top of this thread specifically relates to corner horns, and also conforms with PWK's statements/articles for in-room speaker placement.

Chris

[consistent]

Cheers...yes for horns...in a corner...and the discovery of 'golden' principle more than anything

[artto]

Since I noticed my name mentioned on this post I figured I might as well join in the fray. []

One of the problems with Klipschorns is the mouth exit which basically algins itself with the side walls (the Jubilee was designed to reduce/overcome this issue). Much of the bass output travels along the side walls and piles up in the rear corners. I suggest placing large floor to ceiling bass traps in the rear corners. And don't forget ~ the wall/ceiling intersection is also a candidate for bass traps. I've used Auralex MegaLNRD in my room and Klipsch also uses these in many of their demo rooms at the Indianapolis headquarters. There are of course others but with a maximum depth of only a couple feet at best there will be increasingly limited performance with lower frequencies/longer wavelengths.

I've never like the way Klipschorns sound with lots of sound absorption around them. The only exception that I've tolerated, simply because it measurably made the bass response smoother is placing an Auralex MegaLNRD on top of the Khorns. I've also found that moving the MegaLNRD backward or forward (extending over the front to absorb tweeter output) can help control unwanted reflections from say, a flat, standard 8' ceiling.

When using the Khorns on the long wall you will want to have some absorption/diffusion on the back wall so that the near term reflections from it don't interfere with the direct sound. You may want to do this even with them on the shorter wall depending on your listening location. Sitting too close to the back wall is always bad unless of course you enjoy excessive bass and smeared, less defined midrange/treble sound.

There are more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to diffusion. Obviously anything and everything in the room can cause the sound to scatter. Personally, I prefer an open and uncluttered space for listening to music. That in itself creates its own set of problems to deal with in what is a relatively small acoustic space in virtually any "domestic" type of environment. The more recent development of quadratic residue diffusors that typically can be designed to target specific frequency ranges but also have the caveat of requiring certain listening distances from the diffuser to be effective at the listening position. These will also typically take up less space than the large polycylindrical diffusers which a few incompent individuals have recently been attempting to dismiss as being diffusers at all. Most of the confusion comes about from not being able to visualize the problem as well as "not reading the instructions" so to speak. For instance, Floyd Toole, in his book Sound Reproduction (pg. 489) shows data presented by D'Antonio (RPG Acoustics). The normalized diffusion coefficient for a single hemicylinder appears to be far superior than it is for a collection of them. This data shows that the diffusion of a single curved diffuser of a fixed (and even relatively small radius) is actually very good.

There are several important differentiations here. D'Antonio's data is utilizing measured performance of a "hemicylinder". This is not necessarily the same thing as a "polycylinder". Polycylinder may be refering to the use of many simple fixed radius hemicylinders or it may be referring to the use of a polycylindrical surface, or many of these. In my room, I am using polycylindrical surfaces ~ surfaces that are multiple radii, not a fixed radius as in D'Antonio's experiment. Also notice that D'Antonio's hemicylinders are all placed in the same direction, side by side, parallel to each other. This has long been known to NOT be the correct way, or at the very least not the "best" way to get the most effectiveness out of these types of diffusers. In my room for instance, there are both vertical and horizontal multiple radius cylinders of varying sizes with many of the surfaces overlapping. The polycylinder radii are also much larger than what D'Antonio is using. This makes a huge difference in the results. The downside is that the large polycylindrical diffusers protrude into the room interior making the room seem smaller. However, as you can see from the pictures of my room, with a little imagination and creative lighting you can make the room appear much more dramatic and larger than what it really is. I guarantee you it will make the room sound larger than what it is. The other plus for poly diffusers is that they can easily be made from tempered Masonite which is relatively cheap. They can also be back-filled with rigid mineral wool insulation such as Roxul RHT80 and provide dual purpose duty as bass traps.

Have Fun. It's a journey. Its the goin' - not the getting there that's good. [Y]

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/19799.aspx?PageIndex=1

[Beenwaitinfortyyears]

A pair of Belles in the rear corners works wonders.