KV2, KV3, or RC-3 with KG 5.5

[t-man]

I know the speaker matching chart says to go with RC-3, but....

I have newly aquired KG 5.5s, and I want a good match for HT center speaker. I currently have the KV2, but seems a bit weak and tin can-like. Would the KV3 be better? My research tells me that the tweeters in the KV2 and KV3 are identical. Since I run my center on "small", and I have a KSW12 what would be the advantage to the KV3? I don't see any. Can somebody enlighten me?

Or, do I need to get the RC-3 or C7? Please help. The problem is that I don't have much room for a center speaker, so I would prefer to keep the KV2, unless I'm really missing out on a wonderful experience.

Thanks,

T-man

[Aaron N]

t-man,

I understand the dilemma. I own a pair of 5.5's and was using a KV 1 center. Now, the KV 2 is better, but I recently, today as a matter of fact, acquired a KV 3 in mint condition. To me, the difference was amazing. It blends much better with the 5.5's. The only thing I noticed that wasn't good, was that my surrounds don't sonically match the rest of the setup. Time for some RS 3's!!

[T2K]

Seems to me you answered your own question.

Perhaps your reciever is INADEQUATE.

Keith

[myram]

What surounds are you using Aaron?

Can't you adjust the setting in your receiver to give them more signal to keep up with the rest of the speakers?

[t-man]

Aaron,

I'm interested in your KV2, KV3 comparison. Do you still have both speakers? Have you A/B'd them head to head to hear the difference as a center speaker. That is, have you had the receiver set to "small" and sent center channel info to them to compare?

I realize that if you would run full range stereo, the KV3 would be better. However, my theory is that for center channel duty, perhaps not so much better. Please do tell how you compared, and what differences you have noticed.

TalktoKeith,

Reciever inadequate? Not sure what this has to do with my question. My reciever has equal power and discrete amps to each channel. Denon 681.

I'm also playing with the idea of getting an additional 5.5 and laying sideways over the top of my entertainment center. My wife would go ballistic, though. I can get a matching one right now for ~$250, which is chaper than the RC-3 or Academy, and close in line with the KV3. The prob is my TV is flush on the right side of the Ent center. I could lay it so that the tweeters are over the TV, but the drivers would be off to the left. I wonder how wierd and out of balance that would sound, or if it will send my TV (27 inch) into magnet interference hell.

T-man

[dougdrake]

T-man - I also have a KV-3 and I compared it to a KV-2 side-by-side. I, like Aaron, found the KV-3 to be noticeably better than the KV-3. Most action in the center channel (movie and music) is in the mid-range frequencies, I believe. While the KV-2/3 share the same tweeter, their woofers (which handle the mid and bass) are different. The large woofs in the KV-3 give it a richness and depth you are looking for.

[t-man]

dougdrake,

Thanks. That's the response I was looking for, but unfortunately did not like too much. I just got that darn KV2 to match my KG3.2, and now I am upgrading my 3.2s to 5.5s. Seems that I just can't have enough!!

Does anybody in the Chicago area have a KV3 that I can listen to and compare to the KV2? I can bring my KV2 over and do some comparisons before shelling out the hard cash for a KV3. Does the KV3 have a "tractrix horn"? Does it need one? I noticed that the 5.5 does have this horn that my 3.2s do not have. I notice that the RC-3 does have one.

Thanks,

T-man

[PhilH]

t-man:

The KV-3 does not use a Tractrix horn..the tweeter and horn are identical to the KV-2.

I agree with dougdrake in that the woofer difference will noticeably reduce the "weak, tin-can like sound" you refer to.

[dougdrake]

t-man - You'll get our money out of the KV-2 if you sell it. I bet there's lot of people for whom that will be the correct center.

The KV-3 uses an exponential horn (whatever that means), not a Tractrix.

I think we all are always on the upgrade path. It's an illness. The first step is to admit it!

[t-man]

Could one of you KV3 owners please tell me the physical dimensions of the speaker? I'll have to do some measuring to see if it will fit w/o having to put it on top of my Ent center.

T-man

[Aaron N]

t-man,

The KV 3 is 8" high, 22" wide, and 7 1/2" deep. Just to be clear I had a KV 1 center, not a KV 2. I was saying in my previous post that the KV 2 is probably better than the KV 1, but the KV 3 is better than both of them. As for comparing the two centers, I didn't need to. I played the DVD "Gone In Sixty Seconds" and the sound was much more detailed. For instance, the car chase scenes were awesome, the sounds of the motors (midrange and some low end) were greatly enhanced by the KV 3. The overall sound and clarity were alot more impressive with the KV 3 at the healm compared to my KV 1. The KV 3 even has this cool little post on the back of it so you can aim it downward at the listener, if you need to. I don't think you will be disappointed if you went with one.

Myram,

I have Infinity RS-425's as surrounds. They use a ferrofluid polycell tweeter (dome), 6 1/2" woofer (as they call it), and 6 1/2" radiator. The sound that they emit, regardless of surround volume, don't match the sound of the Klipsch's. They don't blend well with the characteristics of the Klipsch's. I can't specifically say what differences there are, but to me it's very noticeable.

[myram]

Aaron....

I thought that you might have a small pair of Klipsch speakers that you were using. I am waiting for my KV3 and KG .5's to arrive to finish off my "new" Klipsch home theater setup....Quartets are already in place.

Thanks for the response,

Steve

------------------

Klipsch Quartets - mains

Klipsch KG .5's - rear surrounds

Klipsch KV-3 - center

Denon AVR-1601

Adcom GFA-555 Musical Concepts Modified

NAD 1600 Pre/Tuner

Sony C-67ES CD Player

[T2K]

tman, in a nutshell none of the speakers are going to give you what you are looking for.I used the same speaker you have with my KG5.5's for 6+ years.To answer your question

the only "match" will be the 5.5 center.I powered that speaker with an Acurus 100X3 and

the KV2 matched my 5.5's well.Anything other

than another 5.5 will be a compromise.You are compromising for space limitations.My humble suggestion, if not satisfied with the KV2,would to get a KLFC7 or a small subwoofer

to use with the KV2.I just ordered today a new in box Klipsch SW8II for $199.That would

work nicely with the KV2 considering space limitations.The KV2 is not the problem.Your

expectations for it are the problem.

[t-man]

talktokeith,

Thanks for the response. I'm a bit confused how a subwoofer would do any good with the center channel. I already have a subwoofer. If I set my center to small, any bass would go to my large sub, rendering the dedicated center sub useless.

If it wasn't useless, the midbass, would be heard comming out of the area where the sub is located, which would not be near the center speaker, but rather on the floor somewhere.

T-man

[Aaron N]

t-man,

What talktoKeith is saying is to use the speaker level inputs of your sub with your center channel. In other words, run the speaker wire from your receiver to the sub, run another wire from the sub to the center, and set your center channel to large. What this will do is give you full range to your center channel output, let the sub play the low end, and your center channel will play the rest.

Using another 5.5 is a good idea, but a 5.5 isn't going to sit comfortably on top of a t.v., unless it's a really big t.v. and the 5.5 has been shielded. So, a KV 3 or RC 3 will probably be the next best thing.

[T2K]

Aaron, thank you for the clarification.Was in a rush to go to work.

t-man, what I am saying is the KV2 is not capable of playing below 75Hz (check the Klipsch KV2 literature that I so graciously sent you).The KG5.5's 34Hz.So what you are hearing is only the mids and highs.On top of that you are setting your center to small which is removing bass from the center.Just as Aaron clarified for me,you COULD possibly use a small sub with the center and change setting to large which would then allow the center to play the low end center sound.Lets

face it,everyone by now should know the inportance of the center speaker,and to use anything less is a compromise.I have a 53" Sony RP tv but I did not use another KG5.5 for my center.BTW, after getting the C7 center several weeks ago and trying it out,I

was amazed by it.Only used it a few minutes before boxing it up for storage.As bad as I hate to recommend anything to anyone,I don't think you can go wrong with the C7.It is big

even on top of my 53" tv.IMO the only other option for you would be to go with the center

sub idea.That's what I'm about to try.

Hope this makes sense.Just worked all night long.

Keith

[t-man]

Here goes. This will be long, but worth it. Please read!

Thanks for all your comments. Realize that dissagreements of opinion are in no way to be taken personally. That being said, let me begin on this important shift in topic. For simplicity sake, the below comments apply only to HT. Stereo use is completely different, so please don't confuse the two.

First off, my system

Denon AVR 681 (same as 1601) has 60w/c X 5

KG 3.2 (to be replaced by KG 5.5 when it gets here)

KG 1 (rears)

KV2 (center)

Toshiba 3109 DVD player

Sony 27" TV

A picture of my HT room, can be seen here for those who like visuals of the layout and space. Sub is burried in far front corner behind R main: http://members-proxy-2.mmbrprxy.home.net/tkruger4/ebay/MVC-253F.JPG

The following information is from Denon's tech support site, and can be applied to all Denon's AV receivers. I believe it to be an excellent and concise source of info which synopsis all that I've researched regarding bass management set-up:

1) HOW DO I KNOW WHEN TO SELECT "LARGE OR SMALL" FOR MY MAIN SPEAKERS (LEFT, CENTER, RIGHT) WHEN IM FIRST SETTING UP MY SURROUND SOUND SYSTEM?

If your system has a subwoofer, select Subwoofer "Yes" or "On". Then, check the main (left/right) speakers settings next.

If you are using very large main speakers (some models even include powered "subwoofer" sections), you can select Large. Deep bass present in the program's left and right front channels will only be routed to the left and right speakers. For most systems, even if you are using larger left and right speakers, if you have a sub, choose Small for the left/right and any deep bass present in the program material will be routed to the subwoofer. This usually produces better sound, as the subwoofer is generally going to a better job of providing clean, deep and louder bass than can be obtained from conventional full range speakers.

Always choose Small for center channel (we know of no dedicated center channel speakers that are flat to 20 Hz). Choosing Large setting for the center channel will always result in reduced bass, as well as substantially degraded dialog quality.

Always choose Small for the surround channels as well. The bass management within the surround decoder will then route any deep bass information present to the subwoofer.

If your system has no subwoofer, then choose Large for the left and right speakers, keeping the center and surrounds set

to Small. Any deep bass present in any channel of the program material will be routed to the left and right speakers - this

would include any deep bass sounds encoded in the ".1" or LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel.

Some have advocated a dedicated subwoofer for the LFE channel, while using very large and bass-capable main left and

right speakers (set to Large). This arrangement is usually less satisfactory, as most soundtracks actually contain little or no

information in the LFE channel. Often, after a prolonged period of no LFE activity, the subwoofer goes into "standby" mode,

and when a burst of LFE deep bass comes along, the subwoofer has to "wake up", causing some of the material simply not

to be reproduced.

We recommend that the subwoofer be used for deep bass reproduction of all bass within the soundtrack, not just for

whatever might be in the LFE channel (assuming there is any information in the LFE channel for a particular program).

Choose subwoofer Yes and Main/Center/Surround to Small for the best overall results.

------

I have tried experiementing extensively with fronts set to small and large, and to be honest, even though my 3.2s go down to 45hz, it sounds better when I set them to small, but little noticable difference occurs when I do this.

This would have me believe, as Denon states, that setting a center speaker to LARGE with a dedicated center channel + sub would also produce similar results no matter how big it is (little to no difference, or even worse performance).

So..even though the center is very important (we all know this), the low frequency abilities of the center speaker itself do not appear to be important, as it is routed to the subwoofer.

At first, I could not believe that one 12" powered sub could handle all the bass from all 5 channels by itself. I thought for sure that the main full range speakers should help, and produce better bass...This intuitive thinking is WRONG with HT. At least in my experience. Perhaps the KG 5.5s will make a more noticeable difference than the 3.2's, but I doubt it will be much. Setting the speakers to "small" frees the speaker to do much better at its mid and high freqeuncy duties, and produces better imaging and sound staging.

What does this ultimately mean to my original question? Who cares if a center channel speaker can go lower than 40 or 60 hz if the receiver sends the material below 80 hz to the subwoofer (as strongly suggested by Denon) anyway!!??!!

Thanks for listening, and please feel free to respond intelligently. This is a great discussion.

T-man

[T2K]

Yes, and to quote your original post:

"seems a bit weak and tin-can like".

[t-man]

The weak, tin-can like sound doesn't sound like lack of bass, but rather from a really flat mid-high. Like the tweeter isn't bright enough. That's why I was concerned with the difference between KV2 and KV3, as the tweeters are identical. I really need a test-drive with these babies. Too bad they are no longer available.

T-man

[T2K]

tman, I don't think there will be a LARGE difference between the KV2 And KV3.Not enough for my money.I can tell you there is a

LARGE difference between the KV2 and C7.If I were using my 5.5's,I would go with the C7.In

fact, that is why I bought one.Then ran into the deal with the KSP300's and changed directions(KSP300's instead of buying KLF20's).Do your homework before buying.

The only problem you may face is powering the

C7 sufficiently.MY PERSONAL BELIEF is to have more power available than the speakers are rated for.The added power inproves dynamics markedly.Ask anyone who uses separates.The KV2 is a small speaker but the

amp I have bench tested 168 watts per channel

if I remember correctly.Thats not to say I used anywhere near that, but there was a surprising difference between the AV reciever

100 watts per channel and the Acurus 100 watts per channel.When you get your 5.5's you

may find the KV2 blends a little better than

with your present speakers.Hope this helps.

Keith