Rudy81 Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 Slowly making progress. I decided today to start setting the cleats on the walls to hang the diffuser and wall-ceiling super chunk frame. I am satisfied with the fit and finish of the project so far. I will be taking these down to take my initial room readings once I get all the cleats hung. Here is a picture of the diffuser and next to the left Klipsch cinema speaker, you can see the bottom of the super chunk frame. I love these french cleats. Simple and effective. I have decided to also use frames for the super chunk bass traps that will fill the room corners. I will be customizing them to fit the corners without taking too much space. Making separate frames will also simplify any need to move them around if necessary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 You are a beast - looking good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) Lots to report on this project...finally. Today I managed to finish installing the rear wall super chunk wall-ceiling traps, rear wall diffuser, side reflection points wall-ceiling super chunk traps, side panel absorbers and cloud absorbers. Lots of work! I took readings as I made changes in order to see if I could quantify the changes made by the traps and diffusers. Before I got started, I started with the bare room, which I have never used without any treatments, so that was quite a change. Basically, I did the following: - Bare room, tested each main channel and Spud subs - Bare room, tested effectiveness of a single trap - Rear wall wall-ceiling super chunk mounted and tested - Rear wall diffuser added and tested - Side reflection point super chunk wall-ceiling mounted and tested - Side reflection point absorber panels mounted and tested - Cloud panels added to ceiling and tested As I type this, I am finally getting a chance to sit and actually listen to some music! There is no doubt in my mind that this was very much a worthwhile project and a nice improvement over my original iteration of acoustic treatments. The original treatments were nowhere near this effective or well made.....but that's just my impression.....better to show you the REW results. First up, testing the effectiveness of the panel traps I made using the Ultratouch denim insulation. I have been feeling a bit under the weather, so decided not to fight the 100 degree Texas heat by setting up the test outdoors. So, I just place the mic on the floor next to the floor-wall corner. I figured this would be a tougher test right at a room corner. Took a reading with just the mic and then one with a trap leaning on the wall and the end sealed with two pieces of the denim insulation. As you can see, this stuff seems to be very effective. Channel used was my center channel. BTW, in all my tests I have my Ashly X-Over set up with a 'house' curve, boosting the range below 400Hz by 3dB, so don't expect to see a totally flat curve. I thought about setting it to flat for the testing, but figured since I listen to the system with the house curve, I might as well test it that way. Needless to say, this isn't a highly scientific test, but it does give me a basic idea of what the panels can do. I also did a 'double panel' test simulating sound taking a two way trip through the absorber and everything below 500Hz did not even register. Edited July 24, 2014 by Rudy81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 Before I started hanging treatments, I took bare room readings. I have not had my room with just bare walls in a very long time. WOW, that sounded so bright and you could clearly hear the echoing at measurement sound levels. As I mentioned, I tested each main channel and the dual spud subs for comparission. First treatment were the rear wall super chunk wall-ceiling bass traps. The picture shows the traps suspended between the rear channel Klipsch Cinema speakers. The frequency sweep and waterfall graphs show very minor changes and nothing worth noting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) Next up was the addition of the diffuser to the rear wall, below the super chunk bass traps. I focused my look at the sweep above 500Hz since I don't think the diffuser has much if any effect below that frequency. I suspect the effect will not be a big deal for my seating position, where the readings were taken, but will be an issue for anyone seated in the rear row of seats in the media room. Sorry about the messy room, but readings were taken as I made each change, so I had tools and cables lying around all over the place. Edited July 24, 2014 by Rudy81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 Next up was the installation of the side wall super chunk bass traps at the wall to ceiling reflection point for the listening position. Also, the addition of 3 absorber panels to each wall at the same reflection point. This is really starting to show a much better response if I read the results correctly. Needless to say, it sounds way better than just bare walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 25, 2014 Author Share Posted July 25, 2014 Last but not least for today's work was the addition of 4 panels at the ceiling reflection point. I tried to come up with a simple way to suspend the traps to minimize damage to the ceiling and also prevent interference with the projector. Since the traps are relatively light, I decided on some light hooks screwed into the ceiling joists and hooks attached to the panels. I then used 175# test zip ties to suspend the panels. This allowed me to work alone while hanging the traps and also permitted custom adjustment of how low they hung below the ceiling. I wanted to leave at least 2" of space between the back of the trap and the ceiling to increase effectiveness. Overall, it worked really well. That pretty much wraps it up for today. I am really stoked to work on the last piece of the puzzle. The corner super chunks. I am working on re-designing the configuration of the insulation since the current plan takes up so much real estate. However, after today's effort, I realize that taming the range below 500hz is something I really need to look at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Well, I'm stunned!!!! I finished building the corner super chunk bass traps today. I am, however, not done with the work since I need to fabricate some stands to 'clear' some wiring and power outlets that are near the corners. I did place the bass traps in the corners so I could take measurements tomorrow. The traps are 17" square and when complete will be floor to ceiling. I'll post pictures of that build tomorrow, but what stunned me was what happened tonight. We watched a movie, mostly dialog so no big deal. Although I did note a reduction of the 'bass' I normally note in the room. Mind you, I have a 3db boost in the room as a house curve. I have 2 Spud subs for LFE and three RSW-15s, one per main channel. Previously, the bass would blow me out of the room, although I know from my readings that there are quite a few anomalies in response that I have never been able to tame. After the movie, I stayed in the room and fired up some of my favorite bass heavy tracks on various concerts. Tracks I know well. Eagles, Hotel California, Joe Bonamassa, and David Gilmore. All, blu ray discs with hd audio. I could not believe the huge lack of bass compared to the past! I was so confused, I thought my subs had quit and so I turned every other driver off to ensure they were working. The good news is that they are working, just no room 'boost' in whatever frequencies were happening before. The difference was startling! Mind you, all my subs have very little power going to them since before they were so 'loud'. Turns out the room was helping them a lot. I know from listening the other day, after hanging all the absorbers and diffusers that I would need to re-calibrate my actively controlled speakers, but I had not idea I would also need to work on the subs as well. I am really excited to properly set the traps and then see what REW shows with the corner traps compared to the bare room response. This is just crazy different. Edited July 28, 2014 by Rudy81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 Is there such as thing as 'over trapping' bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Are your subs in phase with your mains? You're showing huge 30dB dips in the 80 - 100Hz range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Is there such as thing as 'over trapping' bass? I've experienced this with super bass traps in the corners just behind the Jubs - there is an easy way to moderate their effectiveness simply by partially rotating and thus partially collapsing the trap against the wall, adjust the traps in increments until the desired level of absorption is found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 Are your subs in phase with your mains? You're showing huge 30dB dips in the 80 - 100Hz range. I have always had noticeable dips in my subs, even after double checking the phase. I am about to get going with some sweeps with the new bass traps. We'll see what happens. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 As another example of the room issues can be seen here with just the dual SPUDs running. They are not crossed at all, but are a little further back than the RSWs. You can see some big dips as well. IIRC, the noticeable dips also show up in the room calculators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Is there such as thing as 'over trapping' bass? You can over do absorption for sure. IMO you should be able to carry a normal conversation with anyone in the room. It should be comfortable and very natural sounding. If it sounds muffled or you feel like you have walked into a sound booth like when you get your ears checked you have gone too far. Bass sure is tough to get right. I'm no authority on this stuff... just my thoughts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 Are your subs in phase with your mains? You're showing huge 30dB dips in the 80 - 100Hz range. Mike, I spent quite a bit of time today looking into the dip you mentioned. First, I figured out why my bass was so poor last night. When I temporarily set up the super chunk pieces, I moved the right and left subs from their optimum position into the room about 3 feet. I guess that was enough to kill the bass I have always known. It also changed the LFE spuds and individual speaker sub relationship, thus messing up the phase adjustments. After finishing the super chunk install, I placed the subs back in order to run the sweeps with the room finished. The bass is back and is all there. As far as that dip, I found that it is present from any bass driver in either the right or left corner of the room. The center channel sub does not present that problem. I removed the XO from the sub and later the dual 15" drivers and ran sweeps in that 80-100 range without any other drivers playing. The anomaly is always present from either right or left corner of the room. Once I moved the mic from the listening position and got close to the subs, the problem greatly diminished. All I can figure out is that there is some crazy room mode that causes that problem. I just don't know how to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 As far as the room response after installing the super chunk corner pieces, here are the results. I would say that I really don't notice huge difference is sound in just an hour of listening in terms of pure bass. However, the graphs clearly show an improvement. It seems the bass waves don't hang around nearly as long. The changes with all this work were most noticeable with the reflection point treatments. Theoretically, the corner treatments should provide a tighter, clearer bass, but I have yet to really notice that in a cursory listen. I feel satisfied with the project and am very happy with the reflection point treatment. Jury still out on the corner stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 I would suspect that the corner traps should affect the LFE sub response in the room. Clearly, it has an effect, but not anything in the very, very low range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 Left channel waterfall is much nicer after the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Are your subs in phase with your mains? You're showing huge 30dB dips in the 80 - 100Hz range. As far as that dip, I found that it is present from any bass driver in either the right or left corner of the room. Where was the microphone during the measurement? I'm mostly interested in its height above the floor (and then how tall is your ceiling)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 Ceiling height is 9'2". Measurement was at the sweet spot, at a height approx 40" off floor. Mic pointed at ceiling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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