I put in my ALK's today and .........

[mobile homeless]

As a quick aside, not everyone shares ole Al's disdain for oil caps, me included.

kh

Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 08-29-2002 at 04:47 AM

[tubelion]

Hi kh,

So how do you imrove your crossover, it seems to me the upgrade is a must, here in Hong Kong , only a few people own belle.

smoe says the value mf of the oil cap is smaller than other caps when replacing them.

some say without the induction coil, live with the frequency overlapping, I don't know which direction to go.

More I search here and audioasylum, more I read, I am more confused right now

I use the msb platinum CD player, the demo one in the CES, Jadis 300b, still can't make good sound.

I need help from somebody here for good advice and enjoy music.

Thanks again

SZE

[mobile homeless]

Tubeloon,

What is your preamp or are you running it direct? What are the problems with the sound specifically?

kh

[tubelion]

Hi,

I use the first sound passive preamp as the volume control then to a DIY M7 (without volume control).

It sound not bad, but it is weaker for violin and stereo image.

After come across you guy's comment, I think the problem must be the crossover, life is simple if the alk can meet my need, but as mentioned I have several ??? before making decision, hopefully to enjoy for years. the idea of type A is very interesting. But I don't see any description of mine AB2 crossover.

I bought klipsch because I like the SE amp a few years ago.

Hope someone may guide me through the jouney of horn speaker.

Thanks in advance

Tubelion

[mobile homeless]

I have gone passive in the past and have owned a passive preamp, in one form or another, since the mid 80s. At times, it has been a godsend with amazing clarity and little coloration. It can be eye opening at times. I still have a passive unit that I will occasionally use with my 2A3 SET monoblocks or some other tube offering.

Ultimately, however, I do believe to get the most out of a SET system, whether it be 300B, 2A3, 45, or 211/845, a really good quality active stage tube preamp is needed to flesh out the dynamics and give the SET some drive and midrange warmth, something that seems at a loss even if you have short IC in the path as well as a source with a hefty power supply and good output (at least 2V). Even with all these applied, a passive preamp just doesnt seem to get the most out of single-ended triode amplification. Of course, a good passive unit will outdo a poor active preamp any day, especially with detail and transparency. But when you move up into the quality active tube preamp area, it makes moving back to your passive extremely disappointing.

In my opinion, while you might have some crossover issues, I think trying a high quality active stage might help flesh out your system. I personally have the original Type B crossover in my 77 Cornwalls with Alnico.... IT is a very simple affair with oil caps of the same age as the speaker. To be honest, I find this crossover VERY nice and musical. I have had all sorts of top caps in my amplifiers and speakers from the likes of Solen, Wonder, MIT RTX, Hovland, Kimber, Black Gate etc. Some of the most musical caps I have ever had were the Jensen or Audio Note Copper Foil OIL caps.

Have you tried an excellent active tube pre in your system?

kh

------------------

Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 08-30-2002 at 11:16 AM

[Randy Bey]

Tube Lion,

I would agree with Kelly here, regarding the xover in the Belle.

Changes there will IMHO be reflected primarily in room frequency response, as you are constrained to varying the frequency pass by varying the capacitor values, which plays HUGE differences, not necessarily good, in the way the speaker sounds. You also can keep the same values for components and go with high quality parts, but again IMHO the parts in a stock Klipsch crossover are hard to beat. I just love those PIO caps.

You can do a couple simple things with the crossover.

1) the woofer inductor is a 2.5mH coil, you can find it by following the woofer wires from the connectors. A quick way to bring a tad bit of air to your low freq. is to disconnect it, and use a wire jumper in it's place. I have tried both this and a replacement air-gap coil and prefer to run the woofer w/o a coil at all.

2) There may be, I looked for my old schematics and did not find them, a pair of Zener diodes in your xover. They look something like a small sparkplug, mounted on a metal bracket. If you have those, you can desolder the wires leading to them to remove them from the circuit. Put tape over the ends of the wires so not to touch anything else in there.

3) Again, not knowing from looking at a schematic, there is a problem that I had with my AA xovers that caused a response bump at 5-6K that while barely noticable during musical passages was quite evident while doing freq. tests. Changing the 2.2uF cap on the tweeter to 6uF smoothed out the bump perfectly. You may not have this problem though.

Other than those, I think that crossover changes are a bit like second guessing the speaker designer, and I would advise caution.

A fellow inmate went to a type A crossover, using high quality parts. When I get the funds for this (the copper PIO caps alone were $200) I will give this serious thought.

Simplicity is better, or, less is more.

It could be that your source component does not have the ability to drive your power amplifier. This is most often evident in the low frequency response. I would second Kelly's recommendation to get a good active preamp (many audio stores will 'loan' you one with nothing more than your credit card impression, a signature, and a purchase agreement!)

Not to add more confusion, but have you changed the speaker positions lately, in the last six years? I have Khorns, so position is critical (actually impossible unless they are pushed tightly into the corners) and other speakers fare even worse with poor placement.

Sometimes if you cannot move the speaker, moving your listening chair can have the same effect.

I had an MSB Link III, and with parts upgrades it was supposed to be close to your Platinum. That DAC was quite capable of driving my 300B amps, although there may be significant differences between a Link III and a Platinum.

I do know that the CD transport was critical to good sound. I was using a NAD C520 CD player as transport at first and when I bought a Theta Data transport, the difference was staggering. Source matters, and the closer to the source you improve things, the better off you'll be.

My experiences have been that whenever I have been unhappy with the sound coming out of my Klipschorns, it is because of the sound I was putting into them.

[tubelion]

Hi,

First of all, thanks all audiophiles' comment.

Here in Hong Kong, we make greeting among audiophiles like" hope you have better sound". It is my wish to you all.

I do use a DIY active marantz 7 preamplifier, the reason I stop using the volume control is due to the high gain problem after using belle, it used to sound very good, and I have bought and tried many expensive volume control, and come up leave a shunt attenuator in M7 and use the passive amplifer to adjust the volume, by the way, my M7 use a huge separate rectifier with chokes, good 12ax7 oil caps, good parts you name it.

So the problem is at the crossover, I will disconnect the bass coil as adviced as it is easy.

But as seen from the development of the crossover, the klipsch seems to admit newer design sound worse than type A, they just want to protect the driver from solid state amp. so I guess I need to avoid it because I use set amp..

Anyone to comment my crossover AB2 type, what is it? no one ever mentioned in any asylum. Anyone to help before I do the mod? My crossover has two transformers each channel, why? If I want to custom order a good transformer, anyone can give me a scheme?

Thanks so much

SZE

[Al Klappenberger]

Here's the AB-2 network with all the parts identified. I hope it helps.

Al K.

This message has been edited by Al Klappenberger on 08-31-2002 at 06:01 AM

[Randy Bey]

Al, you're a helpful guy, thanks for posting that schematic.

Whoa, though, it looks quite a bit different from A's or AA's.

Little of my earlier advice is advisable, given this crossover network.

You won't be able to run the woofer directly by bypassing the coil with a jumper due to the capacitors in the circuit.

I hope your crossover has PIO instead of those other caps, but never having seen an AB2, who knows?

You might try Al's trick of removing the screw holding the coils to the board. The metal in the screw acts as a ferrous core and skews the actual coil values. Replace it with brass or just leave it out, and glue the coil to the board.

But having seen that crossover I'd be inclined to go with your plans to build an A type. Much simpler, and almost sure to sound better.

[rune]

Tubelion,

I have recently made the A crossovers for my Khorn,using Audio Note copper foil paper in oil caps.My Khorn is a year 2000 model,so the original x-over is called AK-3.I understand that Klipsch has to secure the drivers from people who want to use 1000w SS amps on them,but to still use the slogan "if you don't like what's coming out ,you won't like whats going in" is in my opinion a little untrue.My Khorn are now a lot less harsh,more organic sounding,more transparent and it seem to work more like one unit than three.(PWK prefered this x-over,and now I clearly understand why!).

Because I didn't get the inductor for the bass I intended to try, I just left it out.I like it.But I might have some phase problems because the bass is now playing much higher in frequency(overlapping the mid) than when an inductor is in place.But what the heck!It sounds good!

I do highly recomend the 1.order x-over,just remember that you then can blow the tweeter.But I don't think it should be a problem with good tube amps.

And as far as paper in oil caps are concerned,if you listen to sounds,bass,mids,highs and so on,don't bother.But if you want lack of harshness,life,fullness... paper in oil has it.The Audio Notes are very expencive so you could might try with cheaper ones just to try if you like it.I don't know if they make Jensens any more,but that would probably be a good choice.

Good luck!

Regards,

Rune

[tubelion]

hi,

I must use the word grateful, in particular ALK, that I know my belle is not an odd one. You know when I ask the dealer in Hong kong, he said it is specially order for Hong Kong, so no fuse and should sound good.

it is also nice that someone share my feeling that this parts is no good.

Now come the true question, may be specific for specialist like AL, also welcome every audiophile, can I replace this crossover by alk or type A, knowing it is type AB2? The dealer even told me the drivers are different, not alnico, it is a early 80 belle, so don't fit other crossover.

Please enlighten me further, I did try my best to make good sound, i must admit years with belle is a lot less fun than with small speakers.

Al, what do you think about good oil cap like audionote, I will pay up to it if it helps, the dealer said the transformer acts as large coils to save space, is it true?

I 'love" you guys with thanks

SZE

[Al Klappenberger]

tubelion,

The choice of what network to use with what speaker is entirely up to the

individuals taste. I believe the engineers at Klipsch have designed the

different networks over the years to suit their own taste or the taste of

the management which is looking to satisfy the varying taste of the public

and the equipment the speakers are expected to be used with. The AB-2

network is a good example. The AB and the AB-2 networks were both used in

the Belle Klipsch (only) and were used with the same drivers (K55M and the

K77M). These two networks are as different as night and day! Why else would

the same drivers in the same speaker have such drastically different

networks? The only thing these two networks have in common is the so-called

"elliptic" tweeter filter!

The subject of paper in oil caps has come up over and over. The claim is

that they sound "calmer", or less harsh. I believe this is because they have

high loss and simply absorb details in the sound. I believe that harshness

in the sound is caused by other things that should be fixed. Don't mask it

with a high loss component! Harshness is usually a bad recording or is

sometimes caused by a ringing squawker horn. Remember: All CDs were not

created equal!

As to transformers, there is only one transformer in any Klipsch network.

The other things that look like transformers are actually iron core

inductors. Transformers are used to cut the level down to the squawker

without resistive loss. An "L" pad reduces the level by wasting the unwanted

extra power. A transformer reduces it by lowering the voltage to a driver

causing it to draw less power from the amp. Doing this allows the driver's

back EMF to be controlled by the amps damping factor. Losses divorce the

two. This is the same situation as with a lossey oil cap. Its loss divorces

the amps damping from the driver. The loss represents a resistor!

Al K.

[rune]

My opinion on the paper in oil caps(I have only heard the Audio Notes and the Jensens)is that they are calmer yes,but not because of loss.To me other caps screams in the upper mids/low treble(among other places),and this can be confused with more energy in that area or more details.But when details pop out at you my opinion is that somethings wrong.

Why is it that I have more transparency and "look into" feeling of the sound if they represent a loosing factor?.I can hear more details now if I want to listen to that,but I prefer listen to instruments and voices.

Regards,

Rune

[Al Klappenberger]

rune,

The answer is that something is out of balance somplace and the loss in the oil caps is masking it. Polypropylene caps have so little loss that they mask nothing. Remember that the sound you hear is everything between the recording studio microphone and you brain!

The oil caps in my old Klipsch AA network measure a qualit factor of about 400. Hovland Musicaps measure beyond 2000! The Solen FastCaps are close behind. I have not had a chance to measure the Jensen oil caps though.

Al K.

[tubelion]

Dear AL K,

Yoe are really an expert, but please which is night , which is day.

It seems AB2 is really bad. Can I use your ALK in my belle, or you can a even better one for my belle.

Can you enlighten me what is my divers, alnico or not , should I find one if they are not.

How to stop the horn grom ringing?

I don't mind using any cap as long as they are good, so as the transformer.

I think with you guys help, I won't be mislead by the dealer.

Thanks very very much

Tubelion

[Al Klappenberger]

tublion,

Yes, you can use my netwrok with the Belle. In fact, it was initially designed and tested in my own Belles.

If you have the AB-2 network, you have the "M" drivers and they are fine. Keep them!

To damp the horns, cover the outside of the horn with a stick-on asphault material commony sold for automobile sound damping under floor mats. It's often called "Dynamat". Window rope cawk will work too.

Al K.

[Stig]

Looks like Belle AB-2 has 2 68UF caps in woofer leg and uses no fuses.

K-Horn AK-3 uses 2 50UF caps in woofer leg with a fuse for woofer and a fuse for mid-tweet.

Seems to be the only difference...

It's the same crossover point for the K-55. I thought the Belle crossed over at 500 cycles because of the shorter mid-horn.

Apart from the smaller mid-horn you'd assume they would sound very similar in the mid-highs.

From all accounts on this board the AK-3 is supposed to be the 'best' of the newer networks from Klipsch.

Just a thought.

Stig

[rune]

Al,

I don't have any instruments to measure the caps,but actually it now seems like I have to turn the volume knob further to get the same level as before.

So your probably right that there are a loss that you can measure.I don't even know how a cap work.

But,IMO we would have perfect speakers,amps and so on,if measurements were everything.

My ears are my instruments,and they tell me that now I can hear more of the colours of lets say a violin.And female vocals don't sound like a horror movie anymore.That could partly be because of the elliptical filter is out of the way(As djk has pointed out.Thanks!)And when I now listen to good recordings of saxophones and trumpets.Oh my o my! what a body,fullness and colours.

Tubelion,

Nobody else can tell you what's the best for you.That you have to find out yourself.

I was about to sell my Khorn,because they sounded so much worse than my Audio Note E speaker in the mids/highs.Now they are so much calmer.And more important,more natural.I can get deeply touched by a string quartet playing soft,and on the other end AC/DC kicks my *** like no else speaker can.

My advice is try it!

I can for sure tell you I will never go back!

Regards,

Rune

[tubelion]

Rune,

So how did you get that great improvement? It would great to learn from others in order to cut the path reasonably short.

I did try my best, I changed all caps to reasonably good one like MIT, solen a few years ago apart from many things I also did. But it is with the internet that I can access to you guys' idea that encourage me to go further.

In Hong Kong , quite a lot of audiophiles willing to experiment, I think we may be well known for that, but few people own belle or horn speaker, I can learn from no one, and no one understand my joy and pain.

Dear AL, is type AB better than AB?

Can I custom no fuse, all air coils, good transformer?

Thanks

SZE

[rune]

Tubelion,

The x-over i built is a 1.order and it's the one that used to be in earlier Khorns.That one is called the Type A,and it's very simple.

I don't know the x-overs in Belles,but aren't they using the same drivers and horns as the Khorn?X-over frequencies at 400 and 6000?

I didn't use an inductor on the woofer.

So my x-over consist of:13uF cap on the mids(With me paralell 10+3.3uF) and the autoformer,and 2uf cap on the tweeter(I use 2.2uF).

I only have shematics for the Type A used in Khorns,and I can e-mail you that one if you want.

I guess Al knows a lot more about this than I.

Good luck!

Regards,

Rune