RF7 II upgrade?

[Chris A]

4 hours ago, joop said:

Does Klipsch have subs for home use in its line up now which mate with Khorns and LS II's?

I think that you'll have to look at Danley Sound Labs tapped horn (TH) offerings (which are patented) to have something that is horn-loaded and is smallish form factor, or something that looks like a fairly substantial coffee table from Fitzmaurice's designs (DIY). 

 

I use two of Danley's TH-Spud designs, albeit DIY versions with higher x-max drivers installed (Tang Band W8-740Ps). They work well, but they also go into the front left and right corners just behind the Jubilees.  They work well as backstops for the Jubilee bass bins to form more structurally sound false corners (...half of a false corner, that is). 

[jason str]

The Bill Fitzmaurice horn subwoofers work very well and come in various sizes and designs, if you have some woodworking experience you can build it yourself or pay a local craftsman to build it for you.

[Wim M]

Thanks for your feedback.  Two years ago I made a bass reflex sub with an 18" JBL 2242H woofer to go with my 7's.  It didn't work out well, I bought two R-115 SW's. So the JBL is on the shelf in our basement since then.  Can you think of something to use this driver in a 'living room' sized cabinet.  The JBL is an expensive driver and since it is just lying there...

[jason str]

Sell it to help finance the new horn.

[Wim M]

That's the problem, it was for sale for more than a year and nobody wanted it for not even a third of its price.  I've seen some nice DIY projects with this driver though...

[Wim M]

At last, found some time to work on subwoofer problem again.  

 

Tapped Horns:  some people say that you shouldn't use TH's in combination with a short horn like a LS II.  Anyone heard of this problem?  And if so, why?

[Chris A]

No, I haven't.  That sounds like audiophile myth to me.  i would pay attention to the measured cleanness of the TH sub output, however: harmonic distortion levels.  Modulation distortion levels will always be much, much lower than direct radiating subwoofers (usually -24 dB or lower than the same woofer(s) used in direct radiating mode at the same in-room loudness level).

 

Using the room boundaries to your advantage is something that significantly enhances the performance of TH subs in my experience.  Tapped horns all experience a precursor pulse before the main pulse when reproducing impulses.  If you point the mouth of the TH sub at a room boundary instead of at the listener, the higher frequency harmonics/modulation distortion sidebands tend to get absorbed and/or diffracted by that room boundary/furnishings.  Also, the lower that you cross over in frequency to the TH subs, the less audible the precursor pulse. 

 

Chris

[Wim M]

Thanks Chris.  I've found some very interesting designs with dual Eminence Lab12 drivers, which are just a little bigger than the TH-spud you suggested.  Which one should be most suitable for use in a tapped horn?  Lab12 or Lab12C 

Danley products are not available here, so it'l have to be a DIY project.

[Chris A]

The LAB12 seems to have a slightly higher Qts, which in my experience is probably a little better, but it looks like either woofer would work, i.e., without going to Hornresp to see the differences in predicted frequency response.

 

TH subs are fun to build in my experience, since the dimensions are not critical - except to ensure air-tight fitting near the throat of the horn.  I did find that Baltic birch plywood (assuming that you're using that material) has a tendency to move quite a bit after cutting, so I'd recommend assembling within 24-48 hours of making the cuts. 

[Wim M]

Thanks for the advice.  I'll keep you posted!

 

[AlmostGod]

On 2016-11-7 at 11:19 AM, joop said:

Since a few days I have a pair of Klipschorns on demo.  Mid/Highs sound very defined, hi-res, great soundstage... impressive.  Bass is a bit of a problem, because I don't have 2 free corners to put them in.  But, when the volume is turned up mid/highs become harsh and fatiguing.  What could be the problem?

Is it a matter of speaker-amp matching?

Room acoustics?

The owner of the Khorns says they have played for only a few hours, so maybe is it matter of breaking in?

I saw someone in Marktplaats who made fake corners for the Klipschorn. Maybe that's something you can look into? 

[Wim M]

1 hour ago, AlmostGod said:

I saw someone in Marktplaats who made fake corners for the Klipschorn. Maybe that's something you can look into? 

Thanks for the advice.  The Khorns were just on demo for a week or 2, just to hear what "Heritage Series" are all about.  I bought a pair of La Scala II's instead.  

 

Now I encountered a sub-speaker matching problem.  Here on the forum I have been advised that horn loaded mains mean horn loaded subs.  Since Klipsch doesn't have one in their line up (something to put in a living room) it 'll be a DIY project.  I'm planning to build a pair of Tapped Horns with dual 12" drivers, probably powered by a crown XTI series amp.

[AlmostGod]

On 2017-5-14 at 0:19 PM, joop said:

Thanks for the advice.  The Khorns were just on demo for a week or 2, just to hear what "Heritage Series" are all about.  I bought a pair of La Scala II's instead.  

 

Now I encountered a sub-speaker matching problem.  Here on the forum I have been advised that horn loaded mains mean horn loaded subs.  Since Klipsch doesn't have one in their line up (something to put in a living room) it 'll be a DIY project.  I'm planning to build a pair of Tapped Horns with dual 12" drivers, probably powered by a crown XTI series amp.

I would see if you can get a Rel Strata 2, relatively cheap and they sound great for music! 

[jason str]

The Eminence Lab 12 is probably one if the worst drivers to mate with the La Scala bass bin in any configuration including a tapped horn.

 

A fully horn loaded design will always will be lower in distortion than a tapped horn design since the cones are not exposed let alone eliminating the precursor pulse of the tapped horn design.

 

The proper tool for the job will go a long way with helping you achieve better sonic perfection.

[Wim M]

3 hours ago, jason str said:

The Eminence Lab 12 is probably one if the worst drivers to mate with the La Scala bass bin in any configuration including a tapped horn.

 

After spending hours reading all kinds of threads on forums, I thought I had it all figured out: building a pair of TH's with dual Lab 12's is the way to go...

 

I read about people using the Lab12 in tapped horn designs with nice results (Kraken 212, Kraken 112, Labhorn)   Danley Sound Labs use a custom built, beefed up version of the Lab12 in their DTS 10, but since I'm not interested in levels of 110 dB at 10 Hz, I thougt the Lab12 or Lab12C in a TH might work just fine for what I had in mind.

Chris A. uses TH's

 

If you were in my shoes what would you do?  Building something in the style of the KP 480, the 18" bass cabinet Klipsch made to go with industrial La Scala's, or do you know of an alternative for the Lab12 in a TH design?

 

[Chris A]

If you've got the room to place really large front-loaded horn subwoofers at the front of the room with your La Scalas, then I'd recommend that, especially if you place the mouths of the two or more horn-loaded subwoofers at different geometric points along the front wall.  (Note that separating your subwoofers from the La Scalas physically is problematic due to the higher-than-desired crossover frequency to the La Scala Bass bin exposing directionality of bass in the 80-100 Hz region.)

 

If you don't have the room for those really large boxes (as is the case in my room), then TH subs are by far the best choice in terms of in-room placement and quality of horn-loaded bass. Being able to place your subwoofers behind or next to the La Scalas will be a big deal in terms of integration of sound, IME.  The reason why TH subs were invented was to provide a solution for rooms that cannot accommodate front-loaded horn subs within 2-3 feet of the fronts.  Tom Danley has been very clear on this point.

 

Lastly, I'd settle for direct radiating subwoofer bass in really small listening rooms only.  I don't like the sound of DR subs that "color the sound" with much higher levels of harmonic distortion and 20x levels of lower side band modulation distortion on the generated harmonic distortion peaks (i.e., harmonic distortion producing modulation distortion sidebands). 

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

[jason str]

8 hours ago, joop said:

 

After spending hours reading all kinds of threads on forums, I thought I had it all figured out: building a pair of TH's with dual Lab 12's is the way to go...

 

I read about people using the Lab12 in tapped horn designs with nice results (Kraken 212, Kraken 112, Labhorn)   Danley Sound Labs use a custom built, beefed up version of the Lab12 in their DTS 10, but since I'm not interested in levels of 110 dB at 10 Hz, I thougt the Lab12 or Lab12C in a TH might work just fine for what I had in mind.

Chris A. uses TH's

 

If you were in my shoes what would you do?  Building something in the style of the KP 480, the 18" bass cabinet Klipsch made to go with industrial La Scala's, or do you know of an alternative for the Lab12 in a TH design?

 

 

The Lab 12 is rated to 100 Hz but does not hold up well in the upper frequency where it needs to be crossed over hence my reasons not to use it for your intended purpose.

 

 

I use a THTLP, takes up little floor space.

[Wim M]

Here's a picture of the left side of my current setup, right side is pretty much the same (also with an R 115 SW) 

Thought of building a pair of TH's approx.  53 x 44 x 16 (in)  and place them along the back wall (where now the R 115 SW is) and the right side of the TH against the black granite.  Corner placement is not possible due to power and air ventilation outlets, there's also a radiator.  And if I got Chris right the mouth of the TH should fire in the corner instead of in the room?

 

Maybe a pair of table Tuba's is also an option to be considered, if it's okay these horns fire into the corner as well?

[jason str]

Table Tuba will work as well, the mouth needs to be a foot or so from a boundary but the driver access door needs to be under 2" from a boundary as well on those so proper placement and construction planning takes a bit of thinking ahead.

 

My vote would lean towards the THT, a few different versions and multitude of cabinet width options make placement easy.

[Wim M]

21 hours ago, jason str said:

 

The Lab 12 is rated to 100 Hz but does not hold up well in the upper frequency where it needs to be crossed over hence my reasons not to use it for your intended purpose.

 

 

I don't know what you use as mains, but I've never had any sub X-over as high as you say (100 Hz)  

 

La Scala II's placed in corners of a 33ft long rectangular room, as in my case, will do 55 - 50Hz.  On my Parasound pre I have them cut off at this freq.  The 15" subs I now have take over from there and I think I will let the new subs do the same.

 

As you say the THT can be build in a few different versions, but that's not quite clear to me, from what I find on the Bill Fitzmaurice's site.  Do you have more info on this?