Mixing of live concert vs the CD

[BobK]

My Son talked me to going to this concert (I won't mention the group) and I see alot of people there sort of boot legging via cell phones.   Well I've head that type of sound and its not very good as its going from the speakers through the air through the people in the room into a tiny mic in the phone.  I guess its better than nothing.

 

I was thinking the best source would be right off the mixing board.   We are very close to the mixing guy and notice he is recording.    I ask how its done, he is saying its from the guitars, mics on stage into the mixer then finally out to the speakers.    Then I notice he is recording.    I asked if they are selling those.  He say no its just for the band.   

 

Then later on somehow my son just asks the guy if he gave him a usb stick would he copy the concert from the mixer cpu.   I'm thinking to myself fat chance in hell.  Well I don't know what he said but they were like best buds and he took the stick and copied it in what ever the highest format they do.

 

My son acts like this is Gold. lol.   Anyway he got a copy of the exact live concert on a CD later and we compared it to the one off the mixer.

 

You know what, the mixer is superior.   The CD is much louder and compressed which at first I thought was better but then noticed all the voices and guitars were very quite and muffled vs the live mixer USB stick.   They also added some kind of reverb effect that was not in the concert to give it a wider sounding intro.

 

I don't know the process but it appears a different person (Not the mixer guy) must have manipulated the recording for the CD and some how botched it up.   Or is this just a personal preference of the person doing the CD transfer?    Maybe the mixer guy had it right but they hired some other guy to do the CD and his idea of good sound was different?

 

This situation is quite rare I think because I don't know many people that have a real live recording right off the mixer board unless you happen to be in a band.

 

 

 

[oldtimer]

Welcome to the wonderful world of cd's.

[BobK]

Well I know CDs tend to be more compressed.  But what I don't know is who is telling them to do it?   I doubt that mixer guy did, why would he?    Is it just something the CD company does or does the Band have to say Yea compress it, make it different vs original.

 

Or do they just leave it up to some guy they don't know that works in the CD processing company?

 

Its not the CD as they both are digital.  We could take the USB stick and burn it to the CD and have it sound just like the USB stick, so the format of CD has nothing to do with it.  Its the processing.

Edited May 6, 2016 by BobK

[Travis In Austin]

For a bootleg, off the mixing board is going to be best. Many major bands allow recordings of their concerts, pepole bring elaborate microphone stands, etc. Grateful Dead is one example.

However, even straight of the board is going to be inferior to what you typically think of as a well done "live" lp. Straight off the board is probably going to be 2 track mono. It is also going to be mixed according to the ears of the sound man standing in that hall or stadium from the pa system. It will have eq, and processing on it, and it will sound different on playback in a different location and through different speakers. Or, it is from the headphone output, so the mix is optomized for what that Engineers is trying to listen for in headphones.

The typical iconic "live" albums you think of were done with completely different process. They would be recorded direct to a multi channel recorder, typically to a mobile truck behind the stage or outside the building. From those multi-track recordings the album would be mixed, and processed.

Two that come to mind are Frampton Comes Alive, 24 track analog recorder, massive truck parked outside of Winterland.

Live at the Filmore East was 16 track I believe.

There is software that lets you play with digital live recordings that claim you can get improvement, but you are still working from a 2 track mix that was intended for a different playback then speakers at home.

Edited May 6, 2016 by dwilawyer

[Travis In Austin]

Well I know CDs tend to be more compressed. But what I don't know is who is telling them to do it? I doubt that mixer guy did, why would he? Is it just something the CD company does or does the Band have to say Yea compress it, make it different vs original.

Or do they just leave it up to some guy they don't know that works in the CD processing company?

Its not the CD as they both are digital. We could take the USB stick and burn it to the CD and have it sound just like the USB stick, so the format of CD has nothing to do with it. Its the processing.

I dont think it is compression. I think it is EQ for that set of speakers for that venue. For live music they are using compression and limiting for completely different reasons than in a recording studio. The processing is entirely different. For example, they use noise gates to avoid feedback, etc.

How big was the pa system? Large concert arrays flown from ceiling? Giant stacks?

[oldtimer]

Well I know CDs tend to be more compressed.  But what I don't know is who is telling them to do it?   I doubt that mixer guy did, why would he?    Is it just something the CD company does or does the Band have to say Yea compress it, make it different vs original.

 

Or do they just leave it up to some guy they don't know that works in the CD processing company?

 

Its not the CD as they both are digital.  We could take the USB stick and burn it to the CD and have it sound just like the USB stick, so the format of CD has nothing to do with it.  Its the processing.

Yeah I know it's not the format.  It is the companies and their people who master them.  They do it to make it sound better on radio and most people's poor systems, if you can call them that.  They are not making them for people who care, with the exceptions that state that is what they are doing.  It's all part of the wonderful world of cd's.

[BobK]

It was a Large concert arrays flown from ceiling.   But that did not matter as the recording was done before any of it came out of the speakers.  

 

This sounds better than any live concert I have in terms of clarity,  its way better than most.  That is why I can't understand why they would not just use the mixing version.   When I say compression I mean the dynamic range.  Its much louder but not as clear, its not terrible just not as good as the mixer version.   If I burned a CD myself from what we have and compared it to the sold one.  Hands down the mixer CD is better and should have been used.  

 

The only reason I know its live is when I hear the crowd at the end if each song.   Most live concerts i've head do not sound nearly as good and I have that frampton alive maybe the equipment is better now dunno.

[oldtimer]

Best live lp I've heard is ELP---Pictures at an Exhibition, followed closely by Talking Heads--Stop Making Sense.

[BobK]

"they use noise gates to avoid feedback, etc"

 

Is that how there were able to get rid of the feedback that should have been there from the monitors pointed at the singers?

 

There should have been some feedback as he is singing into a mic then his voice is coming out of speakers on floor facing him yet I dont hear that echo or delayed speaker sound.

 

On the mixer, I don't know how to equate it to multi tracks or what ever.   But it was a a all digital one, it had a computer screen with digitally renderered sliders along with old fashion real sliders on it.   It was a pretty inexpressive looking setup.  

 

But I am assuming when they made the CD from the live concert that mixing board had to be the source, I did not see any other source.    So what ever that board go is what they had to work with to make a store copy CD of it.   

 

When people say "I want to hear it the way the artist wanted it rendered" etc.   well I think the artist, mixer and CD company all have different ideas of what sounds best.  The mixed version to me sounded more like being there live as the CD version had stuff that was not coming out of the speakers, added effects.

Edited May 6, 2016 by BobK

[Travis In Austin]

It was a Large concert arrays flown from ceiling. But that did not matter as the recording was done before any of it came out of the speakers.

I realize that, you said it came off the board, so that is long before the speakers. But they are mixing the sound to come out of those giant arrays, so it does matter if what they were recording is after level and eq adjustments for those speakers.

So the string is this. Guitar, amp, microphone, cable to mixing board. Every microphone, vocals or instrument, same way.

Lets say six mikes for drum kit, a bass and 2 guitars so 3 amps, one mike on each amp, and 3 vocal mikes. That's 12 inputs on back of mixing board. Then there are outputs. Outputs to the earphone jacks, outputs to the monitors/in-ear momitors on stage, and, most important, output to the amps and crossovers for the arrays.

You can record from any output, and they are all before the speakers.

If they recorded a monitor output for say the lead vocalist, would sound terrible, its all vocal and very little music.

You could also output it without any mixing adjustments straight to a recorder. It would be unlistenable. The drums would drown everything out, the low end would be mud, the vocals probably lost in there.

Or you adjust the levels of the vocals and instruments where you want them, per that speaker system, in that hall, and you record that uut of the board, again before the speakers, and it is going to sound much better than an iphone.

If it was recorded after EQ was put in, again before the speakers, it will sound very, very different from home. They are boosting some sections, typically lower frequency to bring up bass, dipping here and there, to get the best sound out of those arrays.

Compression is used in recording to make something appear to sound louder at the expense of dynamic range.

In a live music setting you don't typically see compression used to do that, you just turn up the volume and make it louder, with no loss of DR.

There is really only one exception to that, an outdoor music venue that is under tight noise restrictions, like Redrock in Denver. They will use compressiob to have louder sounding performance without getting fined.

I guess your son could ask his friend if they were using compression in the board (compressors and limiters are typically seperate from board, and come between the board and the Amps/Crossovers) and if they were using compression why.

I think the answer will probably be "no" but we had to eq it like crazy to maken it sound half way decent. We added 6db here, and 8 db here and and cut 12db there.

Was there a lot of crowd noise between songs? Is there clapping and everything going on during what would be quiet sections?

It could all sound forward for a completely different reason, his friend could have just recorded it "hot", like the equivalent of +9db or more, the whole thing will sound much, much louder than used to, but the DR will actually be greater if there is no peaking.

[Travis In Austin]

"they use noise gates to avoid feedback, etc"

Is that how there were able to get rid of the feedback that should have been there from the monitors pointed at the singers?

There should have been some feedback as he is singing into a mic then his voice is coming out of speakers on floor facing him yet I dont hear that echo or delayed speaker sound.

On the mixer, I don't know how to equate it to multi tracks or what ever. But it was a a all digital one, it had a computer screen with digitally renderered sliders along with old fashion real sliders on it. It was a pretty inexpressive looking setup.

But I am assuming when they made the CD from the live concert that mixing board had to be the source, I did not see any other source. So what ever that board go is what they had to work with to make a store copy CD of it.

When people say "I want to hear it the way the artist wanted it rendered" etc. well I think the artist, mixer and CD company all have different ideas of what sounds best. The mixed version to me sounded more like being there live as the CD version had stuff that was not coming out of the speakers, added effects.

There are two ways to avoid feedback with monitors going back at you. One is less sensitive microphones, that are highly directional and/or noise gates that detect feedback and shut it down. It is usually a combination of the two.

[BobK]

I am not sure how the mixer guy did it but I think it must have been done with all inputs taken into account plus he was doing a recording from the mixer to his PC for himself.   So I assume he had it mixed the way he wanted it to sound for himself.   It sounds great.   I could hear the crowd only inbetween songs but not so much during them.   The quality is better than I expected and better than the CD version of the concert.  

[Travis In Austin]

The mixing board at a concert is typically not the source of a high quality live cd.

A good live recording is going to go "raw" into a multi-track recorder. It is then mixed later on, where they will unfortunately use compression and limiting.

That mixing board at a concert is there for one thing, to make the monitors sound the way that the muscians want them, and for the music to sound as good as possible for that venue and with that sound system.

It mixing board has outputs so you can hook a recorder up to it, and decide what you specifically want to record, but is still mixing for a pa system. You take that same concert, and a multi-track recording of it, and mix it for "home speakers" it is going to sound much more what you are used to,

[Travis In Austin]

I am not sure how the mixer guy did it but I think it must have been done with all inputs taken into account plus he was doing a recording from the mixer to his PC for himself. So I assume he had it mixed the way he wanted it to sound for himself. It sounds great. I could hear the crowd only inbetween songs but not so much during them. The quality is better than I expected and better than the CD version of the concert.

That sounds pretty awesome, very cool

[BobK]

You seem to know your stuff thanks for explaining it all.  I had never seen a mixer like this one before all computerized.   And it he was using digital outputs to his computer that was running software.  It was one huge file not broken up into songs.  Took like 20 minutes to copy as the usb stick was like a super slow one,  we were asked to leave as you know they clean up and want everyone out.  So now we have to tell them we are with the band and I don't know any of them.   This band is not a no name band but dont want to get anyone in trouble for a bootleg so wont say the name.    Son was excited as he checked and no online versions ever done off the mixer for that band.   But he won't upload or give it to anyone as he promised the mixer guy he would not to do so.   Maybe after they are dead he will .

[Chris A]

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/143320-loudness-war-and-the-dynamic-range-dr-database-some-observations/

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/155096-the-missing-octaves-audacity-remastering-to-restore-tracks/

[Travis In Austin]

You seem to know your stuff thanks for explaining it all. I had never seen a mixer like this one before all computerized. And it he was using digital outputs to his computer that was running software. It was one huge file not broken up into songs. Took like 20 minutes to copy as the usb stick was like a super slow one, we were asked to leave as you know they clean up and want everyone out. So now we have to tell them we are with the band and I don't know any of them. This band is not a no name band but dont want to get anyone in trouble for a bootleg so wont say the name. Son was excited as he checked and no online versions ever done off the mixer for that band. But he won't upload or give it to anyone as he promised the mixer guy he would not to do so. Maybe after they are dead he will .

Pretty cool stuff for your son, thats great.

[BobK]

"It mixing board has outputs so you can hook a recorder up to it, and decide what you specifically want to record, but is still mixing for a pa system. You take that same concert, and a multi-track recording of it, and mix it for "home speakers" it is going to sound much more what you are used to"

 

I don't know much about mixing boards but you said they are for that particular speaker set up and not for making a CD.

 

Could these new computerized boards (And i am not sure if it was just a mixer board)  be like a swiss army knife of audio.  Meaning they can do the functions of a multi track recording and mix for the venue at the same time?

 

I'm just wondering if that guy was making his own home recording for himself maybe that is why it did not turn out goofy sounding on my home stereo.   Just trying to learn how it all works.  Thanks.

[babadono]

Could these new computerized boards (And i am not sure if it was just a mixer board) be like a swiss army knife of audio. Meaning they can do the functions of a multi track recording and mix for the venue at the same time?

 Yep.

[BobK]

 

Could these new computerized boards (And i am not sure if it was just a mixer board) be like a swiss army knife of audio. Meaning they can do the functions of a multi track recording and mix for the venue at the same time?

 Yep.

 

I tried to find a photo of the board, could not find one anything like it.  Even the $4,000 mixing boards only have a tiny ipad console.  This one had a huge touch screen like the size of a 24" monitor   Maybe it was a house mixer/multitrack,  Maybe mixers for big bands are not on the internet sites?    The stuff i found looked like stuff for a home rather than a big concert.   These big bands have to buy it somewhere.   Just was curious of its specs but can't seem to locate anything close on my net searches.