Fascinating...

[Mallette]

This suggests that every symphony orchestra in the world should change to these.  Personally, I love the sound!  The audio piece gets a bit monotonus, and since no such music existed when this mouthpiece was designed I'd rather hear some Berlioz or even the almost as mindnumbingly repetitive Ravel "Bolero." 

 

Engineering the Sound of Sax

LEFT: ONE OF THE REPLICATED MOUTHPIECES DESIGNED BY THE MANHATTAN COLLEGE STUDENTS AND FACULTY; RIGHT: SHAHBAZMOHAMADI (SECOND FROM LEFT) SPEAKS WITH STUDENTS AS THEY ANALYZE A REPLICATED MOUTHPIECE IN MANHATTAN COLLEGE’S RESEARCH AND LEARNING CENTER. BOTH PHOTOS: JULIE ACHILLES/MANHATTAN COLLEGE

 

Mechanical engineers are bringing back the sound of the saxophone as it was meant to be.

Using modern tools, Professor Sina Shahbazmohamadi and his Manhattan College students recreated the way the instrument mouthpieces were originally designed by Adolphe Sax in the 1800s.

The team, which collaborated with music departments at the college and the University of Connecticut, started developing mouthpieces for antique saxophones using technology such as X-ray tomography, CAD modeling, and 3D printing. They then moved to making mouthpieces for today’s saxophones that enable them to sound like the original instruments.

Shahbazmohamadi explains that he was originally approached by a musical instruments collector who wanted to test whether oboe reeds he was considering buying were actually antique. The professor, who now teaches at the University of Connecticut, was the director of that school’s 3D imaging facility and ran the X-ray tomography system.

The imaging proved that the reeds weren’t genuine, but it also launched the idea for the saxophone work. About 250 antique saxophones exist, explains Shahbazmohamadi, but no one can hear what they sound like because the few remaining antique mouthpieces are not in working condition.

The team had to come up with new modeling strategies to reverse engineer the design (including redesigning a precious antique tenor mouthpiece the collector had for soprano or baritone). The group tried more than six different materials with different densities before landing on the current design, which uses a transparent resin manufactured by a French company.

Claude Lakey Woodwinds, which manufactures and sells mouthpieces, then sponsored a project to bring the Adolphe Sax mouthpiece design to modern saxophones. The team embarked on a testing period, with prototypes named after their favorite musicians—starting with Aerosmith and ending with the successful design, Eagle.

The research is only made possible through modern 3D printing, says Shahbazmohamadi, because the complicated geometry of Sax’s mouthpiece design makes it difficult to cast or mill the pieces.

“We could duplicate all those hand curves that Adolphe Sax made,” says the mechanical engineering professor. “We can appreciate how he went through the process of trial and error, making curves to get the best sound.”

The team is now looking at how internal geometry affects sound, with the technology making it easier to customize both, so that saxophone players no longer have to carry tools to make adjustments themselves.

Claude Lakey has decided to manufacturer the Eagle mouthpiece. Shahbazmohamadi is “very excited” that the final product will now be commercialized so that any modern saxophone can sound like Sax intended.

Professional players call it a warmer sound, he notes, which some may prefer and others not like as much. “But it is the design the inventor of the saxophone wanted it to be.”

The project has implications beyond musical instruments; Shahbazmohamadi says the techniques developed for imaging combinations of materials can work for other items, such as integrated circuits.

In addition, the project benefited the students, the professor says. It provided a real-life application of the engineering theory they were learning, improving both their motivation and retention.

Here is what a "real" Sax sounds like.

Careless-Whisper.mp3

[wvu80]

37 minutes ago, Mallette said:

This suggests that every symphony orchestra in the world should change to these.  Personally, I love the sound!  The audio piece get's a bit monotonus, and since no such music existed when this mouthpiece was designed I'd rather hear some Berlioz or even the almost as mindnumingly repetitive Ravel "Bolero." 

 

What is it you like about the sound, Dave?  (maybe your speakers are better than mine )

 

I hear a very smooth sound, it almost sounds like a midi recording.  I'm not sure if I like it or not, I might make a better judgement if I heard what is sounds like "live."

+++

 

In other discussion, I'm not sure how recreating the original mouthpiece (MP) helps.  I'm a dumb drummer, maybe a real musician can weigh in on the tenor of the sound?

 

The sax is a reed instrument and as such that vibrating reed would make more difference in the sound IMO.  I do think the 3D printer making the MP is cool.

 

 

 

 

[pbphoto]

that sounds awful.  to paraphrase my old high school band director:  "I could break wind through that saxophone and it would sound better."  I'm an old-school antique guy, but I think I'll take the modern version in this case.

[oldtimer]

If it can make Kenny G sound less whiny, it's a miracle.

[Chris A]

I think part of the issue is the player of that mouthpiece/saxophone.  The embouchure sounds too loose to my ears (...as is most amateur and jazz sax players...) and it sounds as if the strength of the reed used is not optimal--probably too soft.  Classical sax mouthpieces are much more closed at the tip than jazz mouthpieces, and this mouthpiece sounds like a classical sax mouthpiece (...albeit a very bad one).  Classical sax mouthpieces need much stiffer reeds--like clarinet reeds, and a much tighter embouchure. 

 

It also needs a bit more vibrato too, IMHO, to be in line with double reed and historical saxophone tone production.  I'd like to hear a better classical style sax player play it...and select a better reed.  And perhaps a more in-tune performance would help.

 

Recall that Adolphe Sax was trying to replace double reeds in military bands (oboe, English horn, bassoon, sarrusophone, etc.).  As such, the sound of the saxophone was supposed to sound like their double reed instrument counterparts that he intended to replace, but only much louder and not requiring of their double reeds, which are a nightmare to keep from destroying in marching bands.

 

Chris

[Mallette]

No response to above comments.  On how much the mouthpiece shapes the sound, I am not qualified to comment and defer to the posted material for others to form an opinion, and as to the sound of that mp3, it sounds like an mp3 and one has to extrapolate what it might sound like at reasonable resolution. 

But I am for authentic, so as I mentioned I'd prefer this mouthpiece be used at least for music that specified it's use at the time this mouthpiece was designed.  I don't think Ravel, Berlioz, and the other late romantics and 20th century composers who wrote parts for it were deaf and I think their works should be played on the instruments they specified. 

 

As to Getz, Coltrane, Rollins, and such...they are fine as they are.  But I'd be interested in hearing this sound in the hands of a living jazz master.

 

Dave

[Mallette]

And what Chris said...

Dave

[Chris A]

Note the sound of Paul Desmond (Dave Brubeck Quartet) in the 1950s-60s.  Paul started out as a clarinet player and was noted for his extremely smooth and sweet lyrical playing--and particularly his sound.  He used much more classical mouthpieces, stronger reeds, and a much tighter embouchure to get that sound--a clarinet embouchure and setup.  Personally, I like his sound over the more ragged and rough sounding "jazz saxophone sound" that a lot of people have come to associate with the instrument. 

 

Classical saxophonists all use that sweeter and more refined sound, too, and there are some amazing classical saxophone players out there - altissimo register players that spend a lifetime practicing the extension of the saxophone's upper registers.

 

Chris

[oldtimer]

Give me Parker any day.  As for orchestral authenticity, that's great too.  There is nothing better than authentic period instruments for the period's music.

[oldtimer]

Dave, I'm not sure the authentic classical sax would be right for jazz.  Jazz evolved when it did, with the instruments they had at the time.  The sound is distinctive to the player, and that is a part of what jazz is all about.

 

The concept brings to mind the comedy skit along the lines of "what if Napoleon had howitzers and B-52's at Waterloo?"

[Mallette]

Just now, oldtimer said:

Jazz evolved when it did, with the instruments they had at the time.

Which would be NOW, would it not?  Unless jazz has quit evolving...

Dave

[oldtimer]

Just now, Mallette said:

Which would be NOW, would it not?  Unless jazz has quit evolving...

Dave

Unfortunately, it kind of has.

[oldtimer]

28 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Note the sound of Paul Desmond (Dave Brubeck Quartet) in the 1950s-60s.  Paul started out as a clarinet player and was noted for his extremely smooth and sweet lyrical playing--and particularly his sound.  He used much more classical mouthpieces, stronger reeds, and a much tighter embouchure to get that sound--a clarinet embouchure and setup.  Personally, I like his sound over the more ragged and rough sounding "jazz saxophone sound" that a lot of people have come to associate with the instrument. 

 

Classical saxophonists all use that sweeter and more refined sound, too, and there are some amazing classical saxophone players out there - altissimo register players that spend a lifetime practicing the extension of the saxophone's upper registers.

 

Chris

You're right.  Desmond does sound "clarinettish." 

[Mallette]

Don't believe that, nor that rock n' roll is dead.  Actually, of all genre, jazz is and has always been the one in continuous development.  This may be a "golden age" to our children...at least the ones who love jazz, which is a rare but not uncommon situation. 

[oldtimer]

If you have some examples of your children's jazz, I am ready and willing to hear it as soon as I get there.  Now I'm really psyched up!

[Mallette]

Jazz is quite alive even here in Texarkana.  Oddly...I am listening to an NPR program as I write this where Damien Chazelle is arguing that jazz is not dead.  I've been hearing for 40 years that classical music is dead...but my hometown symphony is now ten year old and doing very well in spite of this. 

 

Jazz IS classical music now.  Takes a 100 years to make that, and jazz has done it.  And like the rest of our musical heritage it is still alive and evolving.

 

Dave

[amandahlauridsen22]

The saxophone consists of an approximately conical tube, usually of thin brass, flared at the tip to form a bell. At intervals along the tube are between 20 and 23 tone holes of varying size and two very small vent holes to assist the playing of the upper register. These holes are covered by keys (also known as pad cups) containing soft leather pads, which are closed to produce an airtight seal. At rest some of the holes stand open and others are closed. The keys are activated by keytouches pressed by the fingers, either directly on the pad cup or connected to it with levers, either directly or with joints called "linkages." The right thumb sits under a thumb rest to stabilize and balance the saxophone, while the weight of most saxophones is supported by a neckstrap attached to a strap ring on the rear of the body of the instrument. The fingering for the saxophone is a combination of that of the oboe with the Boehm system and is very similar to the flute or upper register of the clarinet. Instruments that play to low A have a left thumb key for that note.

 

regards

www.stickercanada.com

[oldtimer]

5 minutes ago, amandahlauridsen22 said:

www.stickercanada.com

Which has nothing to do with saxophones, word to the wise.