pzannucci Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Interesting. Transformers have a 30 degree phase shift. Didn't realize that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Phase shift is an issue, I can't deny that. But we're talking low order filters here. I've tried it both ways -- I came to a different conclusion that you did. The L-pads sounded dry. An autotransformer let's you use a very high quality primary capacitor. Once you get past 13uF, you're into the cheap metallized stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 1 minute ago, pzannucci said: Interesting. Transformers have a 30 degree phase shift. Didn't realize that. Well sure, it's a coil -- but how big of a deal is this really in low order filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Just now, Deang said: Well sure, it's a coil -- but how big of a deal is this really in low order filter. Just didn't know that. Compared to a 12db or 24db, which are in most high end designs, minor . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wdecho Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, pzannucci said: Interesting. Transformers have a 30 degree phase shift. Didn't realize that. The phase shift is very offensive to my ears. I tried many different combinations of crossovers using autotransformers over months of time years ago before deciding a simple 1st order X-over sound the best for myself. PWK was a firm believer in less himself and preferred a 1st order crossover, the A, but with an autotransformer to save power loss. If he was still alive at his prime with cheap watts available I believe he would eliminate them himself. Just an added expense that is not necessary these days. Resistors actually do a great job with a slight amount of power loss which means nothing these days. I use only resistors for attenuation with some 1 watt SET amplifiers lacking nothing in the power department with my Lascala's. The resistance used is in the 2 ohm range from memory, trivial actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 3 hours ago, wdecho said: So you think an autotransformer is less offensive than some resistance. Nothing more needs to be said about that statement. Defy's the basic principles of electronics but you get that kind of statement on social media forums but never on technical forums. I don't think anyone is talking about autotransformers on "social media forums" except me: https://www.facebook.com/klipschcrossovers/ As for technical forums, you might want to check out Dave Slagle and Intact Audio at www.diyaudio.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wdecho Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, pzannucci said: Just didn't know that. Compared to a 12db or 24db, which are in most high end designs, minor . It is still a 30 degree shift no matter how it is used. With the phase shift of the caps added to the mix you wind up swapping the leads going out guessing what sounds best. Klipsch actually inverted the wires once and then later amended a crossover sending out a notice to change the leads after much research and listening I would guess. My stock AL network had the wires inverted trying to get the signal close enough to the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wdecho Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, Deang said: I don't think anyone is talking about autotransformers on "social media forms" except me: https://www.facebook.com/klipschcrossovers/ As for technical forums, you might want to check out Dave Slagle and Intact Audio at www.diyaudio.com You will never win this argument no matter how much you think you know. You just need to accept the laws of electronics and not make a bigger fool out of yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 20 minutes ago, wdecho said: Klipsch ditched the autotransformer years ago and as far as I am aware was the only speaker manufacturer that ever used them, many years ago. All modern Klipsch crossovers use resistors for attenuation but for some reason people here want to think they know more than electronic technicians making a living designing electronic circuits. The phase shift is problematic with the steep slope filters that Roy is using. It's not a problem with the older filter designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, wdecho said: You will never win this argument no matter how much you think you know. You just need to accept the laws of electronics and not make a bigger fool out of yourself. I'm not trying to win an argument, I thought we were having a discussion. Yes, I'm a fool, a fool for PWK. Let me know when you come up with something revelatory - something that makes Paul Klipsch into a second rate engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wdecho Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 A resistor is the least offensive electronic component, PERIOD. Just as any medication, all have side effects but again, a resistor has the least offensives than any other electronic component. If you can challenge that statement you should be writing a paper challenging the laws of physics debating with much more talented individuals than myself proving such. PWK thought an autotransformer suited his speakers best at the time he designed the older crossovers. As stated above I believe he would ditch them himself with the availability of cheap watts much as the technicians working at klipsch now have done. If they worked best I believe they would still be using them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 PK did not like resistors, and it had nothing to do with amplifier power - it had to do with the performance of his loudspeakers. Read the article. There is no such thing as "cheap watts". Cheap watts sound terrible. Well, some cheap watts sound okay, but they're just "okay". Since a resistor presents it's own set of problems (as Peter demonstrated earlier in the thread), I don't know why you keep saying it's the "least offensive" solution (either electrically or sonically). Again, read the article. Do you understand how a heat pump works? It creates heat out of nothing, which is pretty much how an autotransformer works! Where is the downside (there is none). I know from your tube amplifier posts that you are somewhat gifted. Don't be a butthead about this -- it's supposed to be fun. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wdecho Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Dean, I do not mean to be have an argument with you about something as simple as a resistor but we have touched on this subject in the past, resistor vs autotransformer. The only reason PWK favored an autotransformer in his networks because of the power savings. A resistor is still the less evil of the two but it was worth the sacrifice in his mind for the power saving which was very important at that time in history. Think of the volume pot on whatever you are using in your type of amplification. Chances are that it is at least 25K ohms or a lot more. You crack it open to your preferred volume and you will have at minimum 12K ohms or more between the source and the amplifier without appreciable effecting the signal. Another example is it is common practice for instance in the two popular audio devices, tubes and mosfets to install 1K ohm gate stopper or grid stopper resistors directly in the signal path to prevent oscillation whether needed or not without any audible difference in the signal. Using a few ohms of resistance for attenuation is not going to effect the signal at all. In electronic terms nothing compared to the resistance added in every other circuit between the source and the speaker. Love you brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 34 minutes ago, wdecho said: PWK thought an autotransformer suited his speakers best at the time he designed the older crossovers. As stated above I believe he would ditch them himself with the availability of cheap watts much as the technicians working at klipsch now have done. If they worked best I believe they would still be using them. There is a big difference between a filter that uses six parts, and one that uses 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, Deang said: Do you understand how a heat pump works? It creates heat out of nothing. Seems you have a poor understanding of how a heat pump works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wdecho Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Just now, CECAA850 said: Seems you have a poor understanding of how a heat pump works. I still love him for his participation and advice for many years. He has been and still is an asset to the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, wdecho said: Dean, I do not mean to be have an argument with you about something as simple as a resistor but we have touched on this subject in the past, resistor vs autotransformer. The only reason PWK favored an autotransformer in his networks because of the power savings. A resistor is still the less evil of the two but it was worth the sacrifice in his mind for the power saving which was very important at that time in history. Think of the volume pot on whatever you are using in your type of amplification. Chances are that it is at least 25K ohms or a lot more. You crack it open to your preferred volume and you will have at minimum 12K ohms or more between the source and the amplifier without appreciable effecting the signal. Another example is it is common practice for instance in the two popular audio devices, tubes and mosfets to install 1K ohm gate stopper or grid stopper resistors directly in the signal path to prevent oscillation whether needed or not without any audible difference in the signal. Using a few ohms of resistance for attenuation is not going to effect the signal at all. In electronic terms nothing compared to the resistance added in every other circuit between the source and the speaker. Love you brother. A lot of that is over my head! I would just say that it's not just about power savings, but about ... stuff. Lol. Take care William --- we both need to learn how to take deep breaths. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Just now, wdecho said: I still love him for his participation and advice for many years. He has been and still is an asset to the community. I agree 100%. Actually I enjoy the back and forth as a bystander. I always seem to pick a little something up from both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: Seems you have a poor understanding of how a heat pump works. You sure? I used to sell them. I think heat pumps are amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, Deang said: You sure Yes. They transfer heat and not create it, similar to an ac system in reverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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