Installing Mike's Altec 511B horns

[John Warren]

the drivers are Js (16ohm) for 98 dB/W/m between 500 and 1kHz. do the math

parallel wired +3dB, 2X cone area +3dB = +6dB/W/m for a total of 104 dB/W/m a pair/side.

i've spent alot of time and $$$ on horn mids and have nothing to show for it. My attachment to the *old favorites* mentioned above was a delusion. They can be made to sound acceptable but never outstanding. When I first compared the dual 2123J set-up to the Klipsch mid the difference was stark, I thought I damaged the Klipsch compression driver. I thought it made the Klipsch mid-horn sound "Edisonian".

I've identified a other drivers that would be applicable in this application.

[Clipped and Shorn]

So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying one could use two 2123Js in parallel on each side of a system and the results would more than replace something like an Altec or Klipsch mid-range horn, and in fact sound even better.

Being mid-range, why is the quality of the plywood an important consideration?

Might I simply substitute two of these JBL 2123Js wired in parallel in place of a 511B Altec with 802 Driver? Any reason not to do this within the cabinet I am already building for the other woofers and tweeter? I am, btw, using the JBL 2404H tweeters. I also have on hand the 3105 crossover ( also a 3102 network, but I understand the 3105 is the one to use with the 2404H.

Now I was thinking I was going to use this crossover between the Altec 511B Horn/802 driver and the JBL 2404H tweeter. Now you got me thinking maybe I don't know what the heck I am doing. Any advice from all you speaker gurus will be helpful before I step over the next cliff and seal the box so to speak.

I think you mentioned that the 2123J was meant to go with the 2404 tweeters. What would happen if I use the 2404H tweeter with the (511+802) Altec horns and the 3105 crossover. I think the knowledgable guy at Jammin Jersey told me this would be ok. Now my question is would I be way better off with the 2123J pairs replacing the 511+802 horn. Afterall, what I am hoping to achieve by all of this is to improve on the harshness of the Cornwalls in the upper mids.

-c7s

[Q-Man]

John,

You once asked me what I thought about the University Classic. I never gave you a real good answer. I just discribed how much better it sounded then then LaScala. I never took the time to compare it with the Klipschorn.

The last few days I've been struggling with some combinations trying to come up with a center channel speaker to match the Klipschorn with the Altec/JBL top end.

I'm not going into all the combinations that I tried, and my final solution now. But, I must tell tou this. I finally

pushed the darn University into a corner, and what a difference. In the middle of the room it was nicer sounding then the Klipschorn above 80Hz, but I didn't like the way it dropped off below that. In a corner it's output is equal to the Klipschorn down to 40Hz. Corner loading raised the low end by 9db.

The University is a much cleaner sounding bass horn. You can hear things out of it that you can't hear in the Klipschorn. It also has quite a punch at 80Hz and above. My two sons agree, and prefer it over the Klipschorn.

When you finish with your JBL top ends you can bring them over for me to demo.

I need some more JBL-2404H tweeters, are you going to be buying any?

[HornEd]

Wow, this is a great thread... lot's of meat and few potatos! I suspected that you were going to like corner-loaded University's Q-man. I have heard them before but did not have an opportunity for A/B comparisons... but I did believe they had what I thought you liked.

As an original purchaser of a couple of the first batch of SVS Ultras, I can tell you that the pair stacked in the 7' tower pushed by a 1,000 wat Samson have outperformed for music and HT all other subs that I have tried... at least to my ears and those belonging to my guests. And that includes the Signature and the HGS-18 Velo. I must say, however, I was initially less impressed with the Ultras until I had them properly set up... since then they have bested all comers... and they are even better with the latest SVS woofers IMHO.

This is not to say that the Signature or Velo HGS-18 are not solid subs... they are... and then some. But, for my money, I'll stick with what has proven to be the best for music and HT by an overwhelming consensus in my environment. Frankly it is hard to go wrong with any of these choices. -HornED

PS: Keep up the good work Mike & Q-man... and maybe pick up a little side work to afford replacing those pieces you blow!

[John Warren]

b

[John Warren]

h

[Q-Man]

John,

I tried the Classic with the K33E to see what it would sound like. It was still 3db louder then the K-Horn, but it wasn't quite as detailed sounding as the C15W. Maybe a 3" slot would sound better with the K33E. The Classic with the C15W is 6db louder then the K-Horn. It's not just the woofer, this horn is loud. When you AB them, the Classic makes the K-Horn sound dull and lifeless.

This may bring my mods back to square one. I'm now having thoughts about replacing the K-Horns. I also can't use the Altec 288-16K and 805B with the Classic. There is a hole at 400Hz. The T-30 and Cobreflex sounds quite a bit like the Altec combo. That's at least one good thing. The JBL-2404H also sounds better then the 206 using the Classic network.

Before I go much further I need to bring the Imperial into the room and compare and listen to it a few days. My son Jason prefers the Imperial, so I finally want to end this debate around my house, something I should have done when I built these things. The Imperal has a stronger bottom end then the K-Horn, but I don't think it's as clean sounding as the Classic. We'll find out. I've gone full circle, I'm back to the bass horns again.

Let me know when you order another pair of the JBL-2404H tweeters. I'll look for a local sorce, but if I can't find one I'll have you order a pair for me when you order yours.

Do you think it's possible to find a company that

makes a woofer that can be used to replace the C15W? I have a crazy idea that I might email you about.

[Clipped and Shorn]

Guess I will contact Jammin Jersey again to make sure there is no problem using the JBL 3105 crossover with the JBL2404H tweeter and Altec 802-8G driver. Who knows, maybe it needs a resistor in there somewhere or something. Guess I will hook up a bench test and check it out.

-c7s

[John Warren]

b

[Clipped and Shorn]

I wasn't doing anything to my Cornwalls. I am building a custom bass reflex cabinet to house a couple of Altec woofers and an 802-8G driver with 511B horns. The guy at Jammin' Jersey said the JBL crossover will work fine with the 2404H tweeter. If you want to help inform me of things I might be overlooking you will have to spell it out in newbie terms or provide definitions since I am pretty new to this.

I am just going to go for it. From what I understand the main thing is getting the correct net volume inside the box (for the 416B which is handling the bass end of things) and getting the port size the right dimensions. I have done all the math for the box size, which was fun. {20" X 25" X 24" X ~7' are the outside dimensions}. As soon as I clean up the shop where the table saw lives, I will go shopping for plywood. Think I will get me some of that 1001 ply birch stuff or whatever looks good or sounds good when I kick it.

I was planning to glue and screw some wood together with lots of bracing and cross bracing to deaden the panels, make it as air-tight as I can, and put in some insulation. When it is all together I will have to learn how to use an electronic 3 way crossover.

Is 1001 a prime number? Is that important sonically?

-c7s

[John Warren]

v

[John Warren]

Q-

Here is a list of all the authorized JBL distributors in FL. Are any of them near Merrit Island?

I'm sure one of them will order and ship to you. If not, I will be glad to get what ever you need from the guy I work with here in the Boston area.

The Speaker Exchange

1242 E. Hillsborough

Tampa 33604

(813) 237-4800

www.speakerex.com

Transducers, Electronics, EON, LSR & 6208, EVO, MPro

& SoundFactor

TM Sound & Lighting

2991 NE 6th Avenue

Wilton Manors 33334

(954) 567-0440

Transducers, EON, LSR & 6208, JBL Dealer

Central Florida Speaker

714 W. Smith Street

Orlando 32804

(407) 423-3566

Transducer, EON, LSR & 6208

Pro Tech Services

403 Ohio Avenue

Lynn Haven 32444

(850) 265-4334

www.protechserv.com

service@protechserv.com

Transducers, Electronics, EON,LSR, & 6208, EVO, MPro

& SoundFactor

JBL Dealer

South Florida Speaker Repair, Inc.

4136 10th Avenue North

Lake Worth 33461

(561) 968-2360, (800) 349-7757, (888) fix-spkr

www.speakersaver.com

Transducer

Florida Electronics Services Inc.

1897 N.E. 146th Street

North Miami 33181

(305) 947-6266

Transducers, Electronics, EON, LSR & 6208, EVO, MPro

& SoundFactor

Lakes Electronics

4400 W. Hillsboro Blvd

Coconut Creek 33073

(800) 244-6354

(954) 427-8100

Transducers, Electronics, EON, LSR & 6208, EVO, MPro

& SoundFactor

Ace Audio

2 Bayview Drive

St. Augustine 32095

(904) 826-0261

Transducers

Simply Speakers

7180-49th Street North

Pinellas 33781

(727) 571-1245

Transducers

Audio & Video Solutions

10200 NW 25th Street #A-104

Miami, FL 33172

(305) 640-0565

Transducers, EON, LSR, & 6208, JBL Dealer

[Clipped and Shorn]

>> And how did you arrive at the correct volume? What math? Did you calculate an alignment for this driver using T/S parameters?

Yes.

>>Do you have a predicted response curve?

Yes.

this was all worked out with a software package

>>Do you even *like* the sound of bass reflex enclosure. 

Yes,

I am modelling this cabinet on what a friend made with similar components. His bi-amped bass reflex box contained just the 416B and the 511B with 806 driver and sounded a whole lot better than my Corwalls. I am, however, adding the extra woofer (515c) and also the tweeter. The concept is simple, and perhaps naive, but the idea was to get a bunch of really great components together in the same box which I could custom build to fit in my living room, and tri-amp. How bad could this be? I already mentioned that I understood the idea of bracing the box so there is no resonance of the panels.

I am not sure what other enclosures would be feasible in my living room, practical, and diy-able for me given the collection of components on hand and my woodworking skills.

If you were going to do this, what kind of design would you build?

c7s

I can hardly wait to have a deep breakfast of mouth watering Linkwitz-Riley Crossovers and cascaded 2nd-order Butterworth Filters while listening to my favorite LP by the Pink Noise Generators. Maybe by then I will have mastered audio speak.

[Clipped and Shorn]

The math was done correctly and carefully with the software package and all those nice parameters from the Altec site. I have my friend's successful cabinet building techniques as a model. I have been reading up on how to use and tweak the electronic 3 way stereo crossover. I have checked with a couple of friendly experienced speaker people, and I am confident that this project will be successful in spite of all the snow and wind. Time to buy some plywood.

-c7s

[Q-Man]

It's been a while, but I want to pick up where I left off. I built two new tops for a pair of Klipschorns. These tops house the Altec 288-16K driver, 805-B horn, JBL-2404H tweeter and ALK's network. The tops need to be painted and have the grill cloth put on them yet. Before I do that I want to set them up and listen to them for a while to make sure this is what I want to change.

I want to listen and compare them to the stock Klipschorn some more. Then I want to replace one of the 288-16K diaphragms with an 8 Ohm diaphragm

and try it as a two way with an Altec 8 Ohm/500Hz.

network and see what I think .

I'm going to start a new post under Odds & Mods about this and try to post some pictures. If your interested I'll see you there.

Q.

[John Warren]

[Marvel]

John,

Very nice work. While my son was home on his spring break, he made the comment that my JBL 4311 speakers sound very close to his Heresy cabs. I am sure it has to do with the midrange on the 4311s that give it the great presence that they exhibit. My JBL L56 cabinets are only two ways, and there is almost no midrange at all, with the crossover at 2.2k, the woofer just doesn't deliver the crispness of the 5 inch mids.

They also have big magnet structures, considering the small cabinets they are in. Not as bit as those though. I am working on a big bass horn, but mostly as an experiment as the living room isn't really big enough to hold anything much more than the JBLs I have, or a pair of Heresys.

Marvel

[John Warren]

s

[J M O N]

Looks quite nice! How do they sound?

[Q-Man]

Knowing John as I do, I would venture to say that his JBL midrange sounds better then the K-55/400.

Just how much better?, he will have to try to discribe that to you. I know that his network is also part of the improvement. The JBL 2404H tweeter offers one much improvement over the K-77. I can testify to that from my own experience with it.

I went another route to improve the sound of the Klipschorn top end. After a few more months of tinkering I settled on the Altec 290-16K driver over the 288 that I was discussing here. I also gave up on the 805-B horn and switched to the Altec 311-90 horn. I just couldn't get good output below 500 hz. with the 288/805B. I also had to change from the ALK network, because it's output from 315Hz to 500Hz with the 300Hz 290 driver was too weak. John built me an AA design out of some high quality parts that works quite well with the 290/311 and JBL tweeter. The AA increases the output of the 290 by 2.5 db from 315 to 500Hz. giving me a flatter frequency responce. I will post more about this mod along with some pictures under Odds & Mods where I left off talking about it a few months ago. It took that long for me to get it right.

I will have to do an A/B comparision with the ALK and the AK-3 networks with the stock Klipschorn. I'm curious if the 315 to 500 Hz dip exist with the K-55. The ALK has a real nice sound, but the dip bothers me. As I said, John's AA cured the dip

with the 290 and also improved on the midrange clarity.

I wish John & I could have a face off between his mod and mine. I can't see how his could sound better then mine, and I'm sure he is saying the same thing about his. I've said it many times on this forum. "I wish that we all lived close together so we could compare notes.