Q-Man Posted October 21, 2002 Author Share Posted October 21, 2002 djk I'll email you. There are some on ebay right now that I'm looking at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Mike Even though im kinda against changing my Klipshorns, i have almost won the bid for 511Bhorns twice, so close, i was at work, on both the outbids! But Im acuatlly thinking of hagning these above the Klipschorns, in the corners, maybe with cabinets! Or it wouldnt be hard just to cut another top motorboard, i dont have grills, or tops, these would be the easiest to modify! Those are huge horns Will they outperform the tweeters? The horns would be the cheapest purchase ive done yet LOL! In the long run, if i do get these, ill prabably hang them above the k-horns! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted October 22, 2002 Author Share Posted October 22, 2002 djk Did you receive my emails? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 ---------------- On 10/21/2002 8:45:37 PM Jim Cornell wrote: Mike Even though im kinda against changing my Klipshorns, i have almost won the bid for 511Bhorns twice, so close, i was at work, on both the outbids! But Im acuatlly thinking of hagning these above the Klipschorns, in the corners, maybe with cabinets! Or it wouldnt be hard just to cut another top motorboard, i dont have grills, or tops, these would be the easiest to modify! Those are huge horns Will they outperform the tweeters? The horns would be the cheapest purchase ive done yet LOL! In the long run, if i do get these, ill prabably hang them above the k-horns! Regards Jim ---------------- Jim, You will still need the K77 in the Klipschorn. Like you plan on doing, I have them sitting on top of my La Scala's. In my situation, it puts them right at ear level. With the Khorns, I would think the K400 is already a little too high, and by putting the 511B on top of the cabinet it will be about 6 ft high. The advantage to having them sit on top of the cabinet is you can angle the horn down by stacking books to raise the driver, which will lower the horn. I hope to also build a top cabinet for the La Scala (with the help of Q-Man) to match the existing cabinets that Q-Man restored... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Not the kind of thing that usually interests me -- but I found this thread to be one of the most interesting I've ever read on this site. As usual, John's insights are always enlightening. I'm surprised no one really responded to his idea of using a high efficiency direct radiator for the mids. This idea certainly appeals to someone like me -- who basically can't handle the sound of a squawker for longer than it takes me to leave the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Deang....I respectfully submit that 'basically can't handle the sound of a squawker for longer than it takes me to leave the room.' perhaps is based upon never listening to a 511b or Cobreflex properly networked and matched with it's tweeter and woofer 'mates'? Personally, I agree to a point....I find the stock application of K400/K500/K700 horns to be extremely grating and strident. There are however horns out there that are every bit as subtle and warm as a fine direct. Certainly the Edgar bowls qualify. These impart all the qualities of a direct without sacrificing the 'robustness' or underlying brute strength 'feel' of a horn. I would think that utilyzing high efficiency DR's for the mids would change these characteristics. Jim, I mount my tweeters within the mouth of the 511. Vertically in the case of my khorns, but when I was 'dinking' around with tweeter placement for my center Belle, I had my daughter, reaching over the top of the Belle with tweeter in hand, rotate it whilst I had eyes closed. Without peeking, clearly the sound 'bloomed' when the tweeter was in the horizontal position, so that's how I mounted it. I don't think that having the 511b up on high will detract from the listening experience too much. This horn has a very curved build. This 'pouty lip' construction I believe lends itself well to vertical dispersion. I don't think you will hear too much of a difference if it is angled down towards you, straight out, or even angled up a bit. I do however believe that soundwaves reflected off the ceiling and floor will be accountable for any percieved difference in sound. After listening to the flex's all weekend, and soliciting critique from numerous semi-interested folks, the unilateral opinion is that it is far and beyond mere 'better' than the K400/k55 or the k400/SAHF. With a stock AA network. The general concensus is that it is considerably less 'screechy', much easier to listen to, voices sound 'normal' instead of 'nasaly', and that the listeners 'heard things that they hadn't heard' which I took to mean like fingers sliding across guitar strings and other subtle sounds. I also compared the flex's to a K500/k55 combo originally removed from my Belle. If anything, the K500/k55 sounded even worse when compared to the cobre/k55 or cobre/SAHF. All these comparisons were through an AB2 network as well as with an AA network. I did not notice an appreciable difference hooking up the cobre/SAHF/k55 to the AB2 when compared to the AA. Though the AB2 had slightly more 'presence'. Regrettably, I have not had enough time to compare against a 511b yet. I'm thinking this week for that eventuality. However, my initial application thoughts lean towards using the 'flexys' as replacement mid-horns for my surround Cornwalls towards the goal of a more equal tonal balance between Khorns, Belles and CWs. Clearly there isn't room atop a CW for a 511b. There is however opportunity to set a cobre atop, either naked or in a cabinet 'add-on'. Naturally, my concern lies with crossover freqs. I'm thinking that the CW's horn is a 600 or 700hz unit and since the Cobre is a 450hz(?) horn, would there be too much overlap? Al? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Im ganna barrow a set of 511bs from johnellis this week, then ill play with them! I guess ill have to have them here, to actually see and hear this! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 "I'm surprised no one really responded to his idea of using a high efficiency direct radiator for the mids." The JBL2123 is ruler flat from 250hz~5Khz. I've heard both stacked pairs and quads, crossed over to compression drivers for the top end. Normally the cost for four of these would be beyond most budgets, but the $130 each price at the tent sale http://www.jblpro.com/Tent_Sale/sale_items.htm make them a contender. Also consider the 2118 8" driver, they go high enough to cross directly to the K77. "This idea certainly appeals to someone like me -- who basically can't handle the sound of a squawker for longer than it takes me to leave the room." The Community Light and Sound M200 will challenge what you think about squawkers. Its 2" throat has almost 10X the area of the stock K55V. This, coupled with the 2:1 compression ratio (instead of the 10:1 ratio of the K55) and 2X the diaphragm area give it a much more relaxed sound at any listening volume. The MSRP on a pair of M200 is comparable to the cost of four tent sale JBL2123s. Unlike the JBLs, the M200 can keep the stock grill and look of the Klipschorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 I second the notion of this being one of the more interesting threads on this forum. OF course, if some of you guys were to head to the High Efficiency Speaker Asylum you would be inundated with much more info in this area since the Klipsch aspect is just a SMALL part of the whole horn picture. Ditto with the Altec and JBL sites. The whole High Efficiency game is intriguing with many ways to skin a cat from single source rear loaded horns to fully loaded horn systems to DIY horns to vintage theatre setups to bastardization of all above. I'll probably end up down that path when I get a place that has more room. As is, the CW about as big as I can get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted October 23, 2002 Author Share Posted October 23, 2002 Interesting? Try frustrating. Now djk is talking about the Community light and sound driver, just when I thought that I had things figured out. Djk, please give me some more information. Like a website, where I can purchase them, etc. Are you using this M200 driver? What horn goes with it? Is this why you have the Altec driver and horn for sale? I do like the idea of not having to build new tops for the klipschorns. I can't respond to what John is doing. I'm just waiting to see what he comes up with. As far as DR's for the mids, I'm an all horn loaded type of guy. But, hearing is believing. I just have to be able to AB them. I would have to put John's new top next to the Altec and compare them before I could say anything. This buying of items to experiment with can get costly. I need to start selling off some of my unused stuff. I must say that John hasn't steered me wrong on the bass horn cabinets that I built to try out. If I said it once, I said it 100 times. I wish some of us lived closer together. It would save all of us tweakers time and money. Edwarde, The Cobreflex is a 250Hz horn. I wouldn't worry about that eather. After a couple of weeks of this comparing I found out that with a 400Hz network that I don't hear anything lower coming from the cobre then I do out of the 400Hz K-400 or the 500Hz 805B. This was a major concern of mine with the Altec driver and horn. Would it reproduce the same low frequencies that the K-400/K55 combo do? I say yes the 500Hz Altec does and even cleaner. The network is doing it's job and the Altec must go lower then it's spefications. The Cobre with the 400Hz network also doesn't reproduce any lower frequencies then the K-400 or the 805B. And the Cobre is more able to do so. If you remember Paul had the K77 tweeter mounted vertically in his wooden squawker horn in the early Klipschorn models. This tweeter was designed to be mounted vertically and I have had others say that it sounds better that way. I think that the newer klipschorns became more of a compromise. The K77 won't fit into a K-400, and to save space Paul mounted it horizontally above the K-400. Keep us updated with your opinions. They will help others along the way. I now starting to draw up a new Klipschorn and laScala top to fit the Altec, while I wait for my test CD's to arrive. A vertical mounted K-77 is also something I may concider. I may also have to make the Horizontal compromise. I havn't gotten that far yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 djk has eluded to the DR system I am putting together. When I saw the 2123Js on the tent sale I think I spoke to him about this set-up. Two 2123Js wired in parallel presents an 8 ohm nominal load. Each driver is 98dB/W/m at 16ohm so in parallel the theoretical sensitivity is 98 + 3 (1/2 impedance) + 3 (double cone area) = 104 dB/W/m (theoretical) which is a match to the folded unit. The concept then requires 2 drivers/side for a total of 4 units for a combined continous power capacity of 1kW+(!!) over a bandwidth of 300-4.5kHz. Harmonic distortion in these units is negligible at extreme outputs. Used in dual arrays/channel the HD is of no concern. The dual array also opens up the possibilty of bi-amping without power limitations. I am now building cabinets that the wife (and I) will find visually more acceptable. The test cabs were simple .35 cubic ft sealed MDF enclosures. Output is outstanding but I will discuss that when I have plots and network mods to talk to. The *new* enclosures are "wedge-type" and will sit atop the bass units similar to the exisiting K400 enclosure. Each driver will be separated from its neighbor. I have a passive network that is still in the tweak stage. I'm using borrowed JBL 2404 tweeters. I have tried EV ST-350s with good results. I should be receiving new 2404s this week. I purchased (8) 2123Js when they became available on the tent sale. My first thoughts were to go 4 per/side and bi-amp but this seemed to be the logical first step. The 2123Js cost $130 each and the shipping was free. These are NIB units NOT B-types. The 2123J is universally accepted as a high quality mid-range reproducer. I have heard these as solo drivers in three ways and found them to be remarkable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Thanks Q for the Cobre input. Sorry to mislead you on the vertical vs horizontal thing, I was speaking about a 4401, not a T35. This is another one of those personal preference things.....I cannot listen to a K77/T35 for very long. Hurts my jaw gritting my teeth..... Are you designing a new top for your Khorns/La Scalas because you don't want to cut the flanges off the 511b? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted October 23, 2002 Author Share Posted October 23, 2002 Ed, Just a recap here. I found the 511B to be an improvement over the K-400. The Cobreflex was an improvement over the 511B. The Altec driver and horn was found be be an improvement over the cobreflex. It's the Altec 805B that is causing me to build a new top for the Klipschorns. The 805 is 13" high, 15.5" high if you count the bolt down tabs on each corner of the mouth. I might cut either the top or bottom tabs off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Q-Man---Try the 288-Ks and 805s without the tweeters. I got my 288-Ks yesterday and they are wondrous and doing the strangest things. On the 1005s they are flat on axis (and quite far off axis horizontally) to 16khz, the highest reading on my RTA. The 1" JBL 2427 drivers I was using before nosedived at 8khz on the 1005s. Using the 288-Ks with the tweeters I'd used with the JBLs caused a terrific glut of high frequency energy, removing the tweeters made things sound just right and measure just right too. I'm at a loss to explain this performence which was totally unexpected and seems to go against what I've read about compression driver performence on CD type horns, which multicells somewhat resemble in effect. It could be that the 1005s EXTREMELY narrow vertical directivity is in effect supplying EQ and that the massive motor of the 288 is simply muscleing more highs than the 2427 could. In any case it's odd but the RTA and my ears are telling me some story. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Q- http://www.community.chester.pa.us/horndriv.html The M200 pdf is attached in the link above. It will require a new horn or you can also cut an ALUMINUM 400 horn to fit but an adapter must be epoxied into place. You need to find a prosound dealer that reps CL&S willing to work with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 I'm hoping the design for the La Scala tops is for the 511B. Q, there is a possibility I can get over to your house this weekend. Let me know what's going on... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Mike, Is there any gear would you would like the esteemed forum members to contribute that you and Qman can disintergate? I'm afraid you guys might run out of gear soon. My DQ's are finished, and they sound pretty dandy. I've been thinking about my next 'project', and have decided that since I have limited experience in cabinet making -- I'm going to take the KISS approach and build a "Cornwall" type speaker. I'll probably start a new thread regarding this, and would like to use the input from this thread as a basis for the build. Get ready for a lot of stupid questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 OK Dean.....here's my first CW input for your considerations.... My '85 Cornwalls have served as surrounds for a year now. A few months back, I 'retro'd them.....replaced the B2 networks with the much simpler and warmer 'B' networks, replaced the square magnet K77s with the older round magnet K77s, replaced the K52 mid drivers with K55Vs. I believe that in essence, the CW's are now representative of 70's era CW's. I've been able to deal with the scratchiness of the K77s and the lack of dispersion from the midhorn because these have been surrounds, lending an ambiance more than anything else. All this changed when I added DVD-Audio. Now, the surrounds play a greater role. In many cases the role required is both seamless integration with the other speakers as well as excellent stand alone abilities. It is during the playback of DVD-A material that some inherent CW weaknesses are fleshed out. One thing I did to more evenly match the Khorns and Belles was to replace the K33s with Stephens Trusonics. This helped considerably towards matching the other speakers. Based upon several glowing reviews earlier in this thread, I aquired a pair of Cobreflexs. 'Garage' tests indicated a very warm and detailed horn experience, so I dragged one in last night, set it atop one CW, and wired it in. Here's my opinion thus far: The Cobre plays louder than the original mid-horn setup. Since I have SAHFs in the rest of the speakers, I tested the CW/Cobre with this driver as the real intent is to more evenly match the others. Like I say, louder, considerably louder to the point of 'takeover' rather than blend. I would at this point estimate around 6 or 7db louder. This could possibly be a function of a more efficient driver/horn setup in tandem with the fact that I have the surrounds cranked up at the receiver to account for lesser efficiency in the CWs when compared to the Khorns and Belles. However, I'm thinking that a more likely scenerio will be that if I reduce the overall input to the speaker to bring the Cobre inline, the bass and treble will fall off to relative nothingness, right? Really the solution would be to reduce just the midrange by several db. So that's the negative aspect of this trial. On the positive side, the clarity, detail and dispersion cannot be rivaled by the stock K55/K(whatever horn is in a CW). My reference DVD-A of choice is the Eagles Hotel CA. I only had time to listen to a few tracks, at very low tones, but I can tell you that I heard things....lots of things....that I have never heard before. And I listen to this DVD-A a lot. To that end, I would truly love to somehow make the Cobreflex work. Any suggestions? Increase/decrease capacitance? Try a different tap? There must be a simple solution..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Ed, With Al's crossovers, the different tap settings allow you to decrease the output of the squawkers. I'm not sure how you would do it with the type B's that you made however. Of course, I'm sure you already knew that... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Avitar 1980 Klipschorns Altec 511b horns, sounds GREAT WOW! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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