DrPyro Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 I will soon be placing another order for parts to make some more custom length interconnects. They will be made using Canare cabling (LV-77s) with Canare 75 Ohm RCA connectors (RCAP-C77). < I can also make BNC & F-style interconnects if desired > . A description of the process I will use can be seen at http://www.bus.ucf.edu/cwhite/theater/DIYCable.htm (It's currently off-line, hopefully it will be back soon). I don't use the flex covering the cable, since that is extra expense and I like the color of the cable. The LV-77s cable is VERY flexible and is double shielded, and its specs are shown in the attached file. Currently, I have purple color cabling, but depending on the response of the BB, i might purchase a different color as per the groups request. If interested, I can post pictures of the cables that i have made in a day or two. The price for EACH cable will probably be $10 for up to 3 ft with $1 for each additional foot. Shipping will be extra and will probably be around $5 for each order (I will have to check the USPS rates). If you are interested, please post here or email me the length (in inches), type of connects, number of cables you would want, and your vote for a different color (I'll go with the majorities whim). Evaluation of the Canare Cable: I was hoping of doing a more detailed listening evaluation of the cables, however, I have not been able too. But, I have tried several different interconnect cables to see if i could tell a difference (I just didn't belive Kelly aka mobile homeless). I compared some "ultra crap" cable that came with an old VCR, Monster Interconnects (100's I think), and the Canare cable. When listening to several classical CDs the "ultra crap" sounded compressed and the notes were sharp, it was as if you were listening to 1/2 an orchestra with no base section. When switching to the Canare cabling, the changes were dramatic. The sound wasn't compressed and sounded much more natural, it was as if it was an entirely different recording. Then I switched to the Monster cabling, to be honest, I really couldn't tell a difference between it and the Canare. However, I am still using my Denon 3801 receiver to evaluate, as the ACT-3 is getting repaired. The Denon's DAC is not very detailed and perhaps with the more detailed ACT-3 DACs I would be able to hear a difference. However, the MAJOR advantage to the Canare cabling is that they are STURDY and custom lengths! Every time i adjusted the monster cabling, I swore that i was going to rip the cable from the connector or break the RCA connectors on the receiver due to the death grip that the monster connector. Additional information can be searched for at http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/index.php Thanks -Dave canarelv.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 is this the same canare cable used to make HD600 headphone cable replacement/upgrade cables? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrPyro Posted October 14, 2002 Author Share Posted October 14, 2002 Justin- The HD600s are very popular and there are so many cable tweeks by a varity of companies. I'm sure some of them use one varity or another of Canare or Belden cabling, but I don't know for sure since few companies actually tell you the source of their "Miracle" cable. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 here is what a friend has told me... friend through another bulletin board buy much more Canare cable than you need too... it's very cheap, and you can afford to screw up a little. professionals also use this stuff for their studios... it's what i use. make a couple cable for your components with this stuff. i think you'll like it. you can contact me by email with you want to know how to make audio cables with this. star quad was originally made for microphones due to its electromagnetic interference cancelling properties. i buy from www.haveinc.com i believe the L-4E6S (i recommended this one cause it was very flexible) is about $0.30/ft. i usually use the L-4e6AT for my studio though, cause it has a foil shield, and thus better coverage... but it's only recommended for fixed installations where you won't be bending the cable much. guess the foil can break eventually. and it's also not as flexible... but it's cheaper @ 0.22/ft. it is also slightly lower guage (i think 20 gauge when the correct wires are tied... as opposed to 21 or 22 for the 6S model.) it will give you better performance, but at the cost of durability and flexibility. however.... haveinc.com charges a cutting charge of $8 if you don't buy the whole roll (i usually buy the whole darn thing cause i use so much in the studio.) so.... keep that in mind. there are places that will sell for twice the price, but no cutting charge... so if you don't need that much, you might consider paying higher somewhere else. i always called them to order. they will charge you $0.30-$0.40/ft + $8.00 cutting charge + shipping. order the plugs from them too... they are the cheapest of anyone i have ever seen. and i suggest you to order more than 15ft.... if you're gonna do the better design, you're gonna need at least 20ft for a 10' cable. you should buy double.... just in case you screw up. the cable's really cheap anyway. besides, if you have left-over, they will make great interconnects... especially balanced interconnects, since that's what they were made for in the first place. when making interconnects with star quad, make sure you tie the same colored wires together. the shield should only be conencted at the output side. call around to see if you can avoid the cutting charge. Canare L-4E6S is a VERY popular cable in the professional world... almost every cable retailer should have it. major studios only use 3 brands... Mogami, Canare, and Belden. i've tried the Mogami star quad before... but it's twice as expensive and does not have good shielding. i think Canare is the best.... and the cheapest. they also carry the Switchcraft and Neutrik plugs at VERY good prices. i doubt anyone else would be much cheaper. they even have the Neutrik Pro-Fi @ $10/pair.... take a look at the connectors on the Nordost Valhalla $6000 cables.... SAME THING! heh he..... you gotta wonder, man.... you know... the idea i had originally was to mostly copy Cardas, Clou, and Equinox. but theoretically, their designs are not really the best you can do. you see, star quad was originally made for microphone cables (balanced connections) because the tightly wound opposing pair wires resulted in 1/4 the loop area compared to normal twisted pair cables... thus reducing electromagnetic inteference. however, for this property to work, the opposing pair have to be tied... but in the popular headphone cable designs, each of the four codunctors are really used as separate wires, because we need a send and a return for both left and right channels. thus... in a headphone cable, it's more like two twisted pairs in the same jacket. now... a better design would be to simply run a separate cable to each channel (left/right)... and tying them only when finally soldering to the plug that goes into the amp. that way, we have a lower gauge to carry the higher current of amplified headphone power (as opposed to line level)... and since the wires are in completely different cables, the nosie cancellation of the star quad can be utilized and we also do not have induction problems between the left and right channel. would you combine your interocnnects into 1 cable rather than left/right? no.... because of the same reasons. so, why would you want to combine left/right in a headphone cable?--the only reason is for aesthetics/comfortability. but i think two cables could look cool if you do good finishing touches. if you decide to take this route... tie the color matched pairs... one color for send, and the other for return. the two returns will be tied together at the plug, meaning the left and right channel will share the same return eventually (which is why the headroom blockhead runs separate left and right cables.) and the shield will only be connected at the plug. i still recommend the Canare L-4E6S for this application. not only will you have maximum performance this way, it's also a hell lot easier to make than a conventional headphone cable. i first suggested pretty much copying the Cardas design... there are 4 conductors in a star quad cable. so, Cardas took one wire for the send, and one wire for the return for each channel. so, each channel takes 2 wires, using all 4. then, when you solder to the plug, the returns would be tied together, so that both left and right share the same return eventually. the braided shield should also be tied to these returns at this point. now, to do it this way makes for a very clean looking cable... the Cardas, Equinox, and Clou all look great. but the problem is, they are compromising the main benefit of using star quad: electromagnetic cancellation due to 1/4 the loop area. also, putting the left and right signals in the same cable introduces induction problems between the two channels.... theoretically anyway. thirdly... if they are only using one wire for send, and one for return... the gauge of the wire used is actually thinner than a line level cable. now, why would you try using a thinner cable for an amplified headphone signal than a low level line level cable? makes no sense right? you see, though Canare specs 21-22 gauge for their star quad, this guage is when you tie the pair os color coded wires together... but if you use each one singly, it's only half as thick.... so you're actaully making a 25 guage cable for your headphones. for these 3 reasons, i don't like "my" original design... it would be much better to use one complete star quad cable for each side... just like those balanced cables that Clou makes for the Headroom Blockheads. dean after reading that... will the cables you are ordering work for me? thanks! 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DrPyro Posted October 14, 2002 Author Share Posted October 14, 2002 Justin- The cables i'm making are simple interconnects for analog and digital use. About 3 months ago i purchased the crimp tools, 100 ft of wire, and the connectors. So far i have been VERY happy with them. But, I need to make some more cables, so I thought I would make "extra" for the people on the BB. I wouldn't use the LV-77s as speaker wire, its too thin (24 gauge, i think). IF i was making a set of speaker cables, the 4E6S starquad cabling from Canare might be an option. But alas, i would like a larger diameter for speaker cabling (such as the Canare Starquad 4S8 or 4S11) . On a side note, being an engineer and conducting alot of experimental research (granted I'm not Electrical Engineer) but we regularly measure millivolt signals (the same order of magnitude as seen in the audio interconnects) Signal noise and stability is a MAJOR problem, so shielding of the signal line is necessary, along with high pass filters. However with RCA interconnects the return path is the shielding. If i wanted to design a better interconnect (neglecting balanced interconnects) i would have the return path not be the shielding and an extra shielding layer which has to be grounded at each end. I thought Jon Risch had made/tested such a cable, but i can't seem to find it. It's also a tremendous amout of work to get it right. I would be tempted (if i could find the right cable), but I prefer a nice clean soln. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 well i am going for headphone cables, so 24 guage is more than enough. do you have that cable?... if not, any tips beyond what dean told me? (BTW, not the same dean as on the klipsch forums) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrPyro Posted October 15, 2002 Author Share Posted October 15, 2002 Justin- Nope, don't have that cable. The only problem with making your own Canare cabling is that you will spend about $250 on just the crimp tools and cutters. Yes you can buy other crimp tools and the cheap cutters, but the quality and effectiveness of the crimp will be diminished. I frankly didn't want to fudge with that, so i got the canare tools. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 well, my dad's friend is an electrical engineer and he gave me some really nice tools, but not the Canare ones. so, if i am using high quality, but not canare quality, cutters and crimpers... will i be wasting my time and money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrPyro Posted October 15, 2002 Author Share Posted October 15, 2002 Justin- If the cutters are adjustable, then they will work fine. As for the crimp tools, there are two parts, the die & the handles. If you plan on using the canare connectors, you will have to buy the proper die. I don't know if the handles that you have will properly fit the canare die. there are schematics of the canare dies on their website so you can see if they will work. IMHO, making your own cables is a GREAT way to ensure quality. How many cables have we purchased and when you get them home you yell, "I paid $XX for this POS"??? I felt that way with the monster cable, i frankly don't like the sodder jobs since the connector does not securely clamp to the outer covering. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Dave, I think the Jon Risch design you are thinking of are these: http://www.diycable.com/catalog/products/ic_fat_ones.htm You can find all of Jon Risch's stuff here: http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index2.htm I do believe that since you have already invested in the tools, you might think about cranking things up a notch. Why not get a batch of the Belden 89259? The consensus certainly seems to be the teflon foam dialetric is the way to go. You can get 89259 from www.diycable.com for $2.50 a foot. If you were willing to do this, I would certainly be willing to buy several from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrPyro Posted October 15, 2002 Author Share Posted October 15, 2002 Dean- Yes, the Belden 89259 would be the prefereable cable to use, according to several "reviews" that have been done. The reason that I didn't use that cable was that there has been a heavy debate on the proper Canare connector to use. About 1/2 of the ppl said you have to use the RCAP-C3F while the others stated you have to use the RCAP-C4F. It appeared that Belden didn't have nearly the quality control or had switched sources which resulted in flucuations in which RCA connector worked best. I didn't want to spend $80 for a die and find out it wasn't going to work to my satisifaction on the 89259. Hence, I stuck with the LV-77s which i know would work. Bingo...Yeah the Jon Risch's design i was refering too was "The Fat Ones", thanks Dean -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 I would be interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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