Bass and Treble knobs

[sansui80]

I always thought I had to have tone controls. But no more .My problem is solved. I went through two amps amd preamps in the last several momths looking for that perfect set up. I have found what I was looking for to listen to classic rock and jazz.

List as follows: Klipsch klf30's

MIT Treminator 4 biwire

Tara labs vector 1 rca's

Forte 4a amp (Pure class A ) 50 watts per channel

Audio research LS-7 preamp (no tone controls)

Van den hul power stream hybrid power cable (CD)

P.S. Audio power cable (AMP)

Cambridge Audio C640 CD Player

This is it .... I can crank it up or leave it low.... Bass and Mids are great highs are not too harsh to listen to. I can sit for hours and never fatigue from this system . Pure Nirvana to my ears.

I just have to buy a AR phono pre and turtable for record collection but CD's are great. I can tell a big difference between good and bad recorded CD's and audiophile ones. Don't let the Forte amp fool you. I cant get past 12:00 on my system with out having to leave my home. Listening room is 17 X 25.

Ben

[sansui80]

I always thought I had to have tone controls. But no more .My problem is solved. I went through two amps amd preamps in the last several momths looking for that perfect set up. I have found what I was looking for to listen to classic rock and jazz.

List as follows: Klipsch klf30's

MIT Treminator 4 biwire

Tara labs vector 1 rca's

Forte 4a amp (Pure class A ) 50 watts per channel

Audio research LS-7 preamp (no tone controls)

Van den hul power stream hybrid power cable (CD)

P.S. Audio power cable (AMP)

Cambridge Audio C640 CD Player

This is it .... I can crank it up or leave it low.... Bass and Mids are great highs are not too harsh to listen to. I can sit for hours and never fatigue from this system . Pure Nirvana to my ears.

I just have to buy a AR phono pre and turtable for record collection but CD's are great. I can tell a big difference between good and bad recorded CD's and audiophile ones. Don't let the Forte amp fool you. I cant get past 12:00 on my system with out having to leave my home. Listening room is 17 X 25.

Ben

[sunnysal]

michael,

I certainly did not mean to call you a fool, I was callings "purists" fools, IMHO most "-ists" are fools. generalization is the fault.

when one considers the HUGE variety of media, sources, rooms and systems out there to generalize about tone controls being "bad" is IMHO foolish.

I have no problem with anyone´s choice to eliminate tone controls from thier systems, many have carfeully listened and made that choice, more power to them. I do have problems with people telling the original poster that tone controls are bad.

that is what the thread was about, should the original poster listen to people who say tone controls are bad? I say no, tone controls are not necessarily bad.

Leo,

I agree that most additions to a circuit CAN cause some loss of transparancy. I am sure a volume control, a balance circuit, and any number of steps in the signal path CAN cause some loss of transparancy. It does not always have to be the case.

however I also assume we all have heard some terrible purist preamps with nothing more than input switching and volume controls, I know I have.

I do not think the simplicity of a circuit always results in better sound. there are some very good complicated circuit desgins out there that give good, transparent sound. Halcro amps and McIntosh preamps are good modern examples. Marantz and Mcintosh preamps would be good vintage examples.

In summary,

there are probably some keys to success in this; I suspect top quality caps, resistors and trannies is one key factor. I suspect that certain circuit designs are simply better sounding than others. I also suspect that the "-ist" factor has something to do with it, there are people who think that a box with no knobs will sound better than one with, that an amp with tubes will sound better than one without, that all amps sound the same. we can find people who believe for the sake of believing or belonging. I say listen for yourself and decide.

regards, tony

[michael hurd]

No real offense taken, I was unsure of the implied message. In moderation, with circumstances, tone controls are acceptable. This is all I was trying to communicate.

[jpm]

I use a BBE that can alter the sound somewhat and adjust according to the sound of the cd I'm playing. I'd rather enjoy the MUSIC with talored sound than to be a total puritan and suffer through crappy cds. Took me awhile to "figure it out" though.

[leok]

Tony,

Since I can analyze a circuit that is giving me trouble and revise it to remove the problem, I don't have to put up with a minimalist circuit that sounds even slightly bad to me. I know not everyone is in this position. I do believe that every added component is likely to reduce clarity. Anyone who can hear these differences, and I can, has to decide whether or not the benefit of the circuit addition is worth the cost in clarity of the addition. The second 6SN7 gain stage in my SET amps is an example.

One of the benefits, for me, with this approach, is most recordings sound quite excellent. I find that most of the "bad" recordings were really just my system's inability to deal with some aspect of the recording. With the system cleaned-up the "bad" recordings clean-up too.

I think the notion that a well executed minimalist approach can be successful is worth mentioning to someone asking for opinions about tone controls. Maybe, if only to point out that it might be a very difficult path to take, but very rewarding for those who can make it work.

Leo

It's also worth pointing out, as I periodically do, that Klipsch speakers are pretty impressive in that they are sufficiently sensitive that this discussion is taking place here.

[Erukian]

From how I see it. Purists look at musical reproduction on loudspeakers with a much more technical prespective. They view THD as bad, they have room's that reflect the sound all over using panels and what not. They believe that through the science and math of loudspeaker design, amplfifier design, what have you, they can obtain a much more realistic presentation of the music.

If your a tube user, your not a purist, tube's add distortions much like equalizers. Purists have the idea that distortion is a bad thing in any stage of your equipment and that it's the job of the components in your system to 100% accurately reproduce the audio from the source without coloration, distortion, interference, etc.

It boils down really to distiortion (ie, tubes, equalizers, bass/treble knobs) and whether or not you believe it's a bad or good thing when it comes to reproducing music.

-Joe

[sunnysal]

leo, I agree it is a testament to klipsch speakers that they can expose negative links in the audio chain. I also admire your ability to tweak your system to get the sound you like, eliminating uneeded components, etc.

I wonder if you have ever simply swapped one cap out for another or rolled tubes, this seems rather analogous to what one does with a tone control does it not? I see tone controls much the same way, they allow even non-technical people to tweak the sound to taste.

I also agree that the implementation is probably the key factor, either for a minimalist unit or a tone control-equipped unit. circuit design and quality of parts is key here.

erikian,

I agree "beliefs" often have a lot to do with this as I stated. certainly I tend towards the empirical type rather than the technical type, my ultimate judgement being based on the music made with my music in my system. perhaps that makes me an "-ist" as well...? In the end I still believe that compiling a system that makes beautiful music TO YOU should be the ultimate goal, all the other issues (tubes versus SS, purist versus full feature, etc., etc.) should be considered only as guides or options to be considered, not as rules or truths.

warm regards, tony

[leok]

Tony,

I don't think component selection is equivalent to adding a tone network. Optimizing components does not add any circuitry. For me that's important. Also, I try to use component selection to reduce problems I think they cause, not to impose equalizartion. Some examples:

Change from 8 Ohm to 4 Ohm transformers because I thought there was too much interaction with the Chorus-II impedance swings. The result was a smoother midrange where speaker impedance is high and more controled and powerful bass where impedance is low.

Move the driver 6SN7 bias point to facilitate greater voltage swing required by the transformer change.

Bypass the power supply electrolytics (which are a big source of sonic signature) by removing the 2A3 cathode cap and installing an "Ultrapath" style audio output circuit.

Remove PIO caps that I suspected of adding sonic signature and installing Musicaps. (Al K's suggestion)

In all cases, clarity improved. These are not changes focused on tone control. They are focused on clarity. In all cases, no additional circuitry stages were added. The Ultrapath approach reduces audio cap loop from 2 electrolytic caps (2A3 cathode and power) to 1 Polyprop. film "Ultrapath."

One of my most frequent suggestions for people who think Klipsch speakers are harsh, and have no bass, is reduce the distortion that fills the midrange with crud that masks the bass. No tone controls, just fix the problem.

If people like tone controls, they should use them. But my answer to someone who asks an opinion is, personally, I prefer a different approach.

Leo

[DrWho]

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On 7/11/2005 2:55:39 PM leok wrote:

These are not changes focused on tone control. They are focused on clarity.

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...just curious what you're measuring when you say clarity (ie, what is the net change if it's not the frequency response of the driver?)

Oh btw, I'm a huge fan of tone controls, but perhaps cuz I play with them all day in the studio too. In fact, I wonder how many of the "purists" realize all the crap that's being done to the music in the studio...some of the best/most realistic recordings I've heard have involved elaborate setups involving all sorts of toys and techniques. For example, I was just at malotkys place and we were watching a Queen dvd and he was telling me about how they recorded his bass rig in the studio...involving 2 mics (one under a snare that was sympathetically vibrating from the amp), one in the room, and then a direct feed from his bass. That bass line from "another one bites the dust" is amazing and it involved some very non-purist techniques (in fact, all their albums were like that). Btw, that's not to say that elaborte setups always work; in fact, they most often don't because rarely is music ever created in an ideal environment (whether it be the studio, the emotional state of the musicians, the sound engineer could suck, etc etc...). In fact, I find it amazing that so much stuff sounds as good as it does considering the situations that the music was recorded in (like that live dvd of godsmack...man those drums sounded good and it was a live mic'ed kit!)

[leok]

DrWho

In the case of the PIO and transformer changes I was trying to remove some equalization effects of components, the choice of which I felt could be improved. I prefer to do that than try to add a EQ device and remove it that way, because I feel the EQ device will bring problems of its own.

In the case of PIO and bias point there were distortion effects I was trying to remove: I suspected the pio caps of being responsible for some midrange ringing, and the Musicaps seem to have taken care of that. The 6SN7 bias point was causing asymetrical clipping .. it was just too close to one of the power rails. EQ youldn't have helped in either case.

I'm sure active EQ is great for people who like to use it. It's just not a direction I'm interested in. This thread was started by someone looking for opinions on tone controls and I think a minimalist approach, with no tone controls has its advantages.

Leo

Leo

[heresy2guy]

I happen to think that JDM56 hit the nail on the head with his response; I agree with him 100%.

IMHO, all that "leave the knobs flat" rhetoric is such BS.

I honestly think people have been brainwashed into believing that nonsense; that they've chosen to buy into the "myth."

I've never had one (not one single person) ever think that any of my systems sounded "best" when set to "flat."

Then again, I don't think any of them ever referred to themselves as "audiophiles" (they were just "regular" people - lol) so maybe they simply weren't aware of the myth (or dare I say Commandment) and simply relied on what their ears told them instead.

Just my two cents.

-H2G

[mike stehr]

I still use a 100K stereo stepped attenuator between the CDP and the 2A3 amp using Sovteks for the time being....

As usual, it's really recording dependant. Bad CD, bad sound. But the good Cd's sound great.

Now with those favored CD's that sound like poo, I just break out the ol' SS integrated.

It's nice to have a little extra gumption for those weak CD's, and the tone controls help balance things out.

Some well recorded CD's through the SS integrated sound fine with the tone controls set flat.

[Fish]

I'm kinda impressed that there seems to be a concensus tone controls aren't all bad all the time.I like it close to flat but there's nothin' wrong with a little adjustment when needed to suit.What sounds best to ones own ears is really all that matters,right?!

[wheelman]

I remember back in the day I would have the bass boost on, and my old receiver had a parametric eq. I would scoop out the mids crank the highs and lows. I noticed after trying a pair of 4 ohm speakers which this particular receiver would pump out much more juice. I found I didn't need anything after that. It seemed like the more power I have the less I need to fiddle with the tone controls. Some recordings just beg to be messed with they are so raw. Others are perfect for a flat response. It's all what yOu like. I like it flat, and think it's more about your amplification than your speakers.

[Griffinator]

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On 7/10/2005 9:09:54 PM bsafirebird1969 wrote:

perhaps you want to consider the use of a Quality 31 band EQ ...

the Bass control, can add a lot of Boom, in the 150 hz region on most stuff that has a knob, anyways

try to keep te boost at a + 3dB level

don't forget, you are also reducing the rated sensitivity of the speaker, by the amountof the boost

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Actually, the most cardinal rule of using EQ is "cut, don't boost"....

No matter how good the EQ is, you're creating distortion by boosting specific frequency bands.

[Erukian]

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On 7/11/2005 11:16:42 PM Griffinator wrote:

No matter how good the EQ is, you're creating distortion by boosting specific frequency bands.

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I thought when you cut you create distortion as well as boosting.

I was also under the impression that when you boost above 0 or 'flat' that your not only distorting the audio, but your clipping it before it even hits the amplifier as well -- even if it isnt sometimes audible.

-Joe