mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 OK. As a Linn LP-12 owner, you are NOT SUPPOSED to mess with things like the beloved FELT MAT that graces EVERY Linn like nuts on a sundae. If you see a picture of a Linn, you see that black, felt mat. Ole Ivor says so. Why mess with a good thing, right? Well, the Linn's felt mat is a pain. It gets dirty. Lumpy. It attracts lint. It will lift like a static nightmare with your record. And while it has some benefits sonically, it also has some serious drawbacks. Yes, you CAN improve on the felt mat. While the Ringmat has received some good press, it was not until I got a mail from a vinyl freak friend of mine alerting me to this new mat called the None-Felt Turntable Mat or The Donut Mat that I decided to take action. I remember seeing something about it in Stereophile by ole Sam Tellig (the heel). Then I read a few comments (glowing I might add) in the Vinyl Asylum. But when my friend wrote, I really got curious since he made it sound like sliced bread had finally arrived in Napa Valley (well, actually Seattle, but Napa Valley sounded good). He said this thing made a HUGE improvement in blackness of background, quiet between the notes, detail, bass extension, resolution etc... almost across the board improvement! Sooooo.... I ordered one. It is C H E A P at only $28 plus shipping for the Donut and $22 for the standard mat (the standard goes to the spindle). The Donut is supposed to sound better according to site and friend. If you feel shakey about it, order BOTH for a big discount! Hail to the DONUT! It is a funky material that looks a bit like a black version of the stuff you put under carpet. But lord, everyone is raving about the damn thing. Linn users site a BIG improvement. This should be good on the MMF-7 as well. People are saying it smokes the $90 Ringmat. And at $22-28, why not? Obviously the Donut version is harder to place, so they have the standard that goes right to the spindle. Trouble is, many say the Donut is better. Extremephono None-Felt Turntable Mat -or- The Donut! The pic isnt that great but the mat supposedly is. Check the site out below and read the user comments. Also, the site has some interesting info as well. http://www.extremephono.com/Mat.htm kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 If you order a dozen, do they ship thirteen? fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 Fini, if you order a dozen, the freak would probably drive them over himself, and hand you #13! Actually, since that damn thing made it to the Stereophile Recommended Components, I imagine he is cutting the beasts like a Dunkin Donuts putting out glazed....with or without the hole. Fini, that thing would make that ole Pioneer of yours sing like a Gypsy! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Not you too Kelly... http://www.aca.gr/equip15.htm This is a review of the non felt mat on the aca site with comments by Tony who spent over an hour explaining the sonic benefits to me. As it happens I threw out my felt mat that came with the Pro-ject about 2 hours after getting the TT in the first place. For some reason it seemed to attract static like a moth to a flame. As I am proudly Mr. Cheapo when it comes to all things audio all I did was swap it out for the rubber mat that came with my old, old Sony TT and it worked a charm (not a static problem since - however many records I play in a session). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 LOrd.... Maxie. First of all, those rubber/plastic mats on those old tables are HORRIBLE. In all actuality, you should have probably KEPT the felt mat, which cost over $25-30 by the way! Sometimes you have to stay the course a bit, especially when starting out. Those stock rubber mats that come with lo/mid-fi tables are very poor sonically as a coupling device or as practically anything. They do a poor job of linking the LP to the platter and usually add a hardening of the sound, hyping some detail and obscuring other. The first thing I do when using an old table is ditch the stock mat. The only rubber mat I ever remotely liked was a sorbathane mat that I used on my older direct drive tables to quiet the table - these mats DID work some magic. But in a table that has addressed these problems, the rubber mat ends up muting details and adding a thickness to the sound sometimes compressing dynamics lightly. The simple FELT MAT is an upgrade in sonics on a good platter ... I am hoping you didnt actually THROW it out. The first thing I would throw out is that old plastic mat! Actually, a lot of people that have acrylic platters just put the record directly on the platter since there are theoris that acrylic more closely resembles the vinyl properties. Still, if anyone needs that mat more than you at the moment, I dont know who they are! Heh... There is a TON more going on besides static when addressing mats. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Well if you feel that strongly I will borrow Tony's mat and see what difference it makes... Frankly I just wanted the mat to stop the static and make the record stick firmly in place whilst playing - both of which jobs it seems to do very well. Sonic benefits from mats....from both you and Tony...well I am game to try I suppose. How much are these things anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 mobile, I am wondering if this mat can be used with my Dual CS-5000? I currently have a very heavy rubber mat that sits on the platter. I would estimate that it weighs about a pound and is 1/4 inch thick. There is a slight depression of about 1/16 inch from the spindle, extending out 2 inches in circumference. It looks to me to be about the same location where the Donut mat will make contact. If I bought this, would I place it on top of my existing mat? When I remove my mat from the platter, there are two pretty good size holes in the platter that allow me to see the belt inside. Just curious... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 On a quick side note, I need to stop posting so much, first of all. I realize that the more I write, the less it is read! At least the details that is... I think I mentioned the price of both mats. It's only $28 for the Donut. Max, I think it worth your while to just go ahead and order one since it's so cheap. Of course, if Tony would let you borrow his, that would be ideal; it's just that it would proably be hard to part with if on his table. I would definitely either buy for the test or give Tony's a go. I think it would bring a big improvement from what you have. I cant remember what your platter is made of. Some that might have problems with the mat sticking go with the standard mat with spindle hole. In this way, it might be wise to try out Tony's DONUT version. Mike, it sounds like the donut mat might work. Or you could go with the standard if you want to cover area. Can you take a shot of your platter/table and post here? Take it without the mat. It sounds like you have a mat VERY much like the one I had on my old tables from the 70s. It weighs quite a bit and is over 1/4 thick as well. At the time, this sorbathane mat was the "thing" to get besides the simple "felt" approach that LINN recommends. It definitely made an audible improvemnt to my old tables. It sounds horrid on the LINN. I would probably opt for the mat directly on the platter where it can couple the best; placing it on the thick rubber mat would not work as well. But shoot a pic of your platter sans mat to see. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Yeah, I have only owned Dual tables (one from the 70's and now one from the 80's) and they both have this same rubber mat. Unfortunately, I don't have a digital camera, but I will take a pic and try and get the roll developed shortly... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Say! What's the diameter of that center hole on the Donut?? I have a 17 year old Yamaha PF800 in great condition but the factory mat is getting old and cracked a bit. So that thing may just do the trick. If I remember correctly, Yamaha wanted a mint for a new one. Heck, they wanted almost $60 for a new set of feet for the plinth. Helloooooo Vibrapods!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Mobile, I own a MMF-5 that has the glass platter, I'm assuming that I could get by with just the donut. I do have static problems with the felt mat on the Music Hall, and would like to go with something that doesn't come up with the record and cause static. MIKE LINDSEY..did you decide to try the Audioquest slate cables? Email me if you did....Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 Tom, I remember that table very well. IT actually has a platter that is an imitation of the Linn two piece setup if I am correct. I havent seen one in years. I actually had several Yamaha turntables in the 70s when they were a more robust company (besides that PF-800). The DD YP-D6 was actually not that bad a table, especially with a good cartridge and an aftermarket mat. I had it as a second table for a brief while with the AQ mat and a Blue Point when they first came out. Your PF-800 really is a beast and something you hardly ever see any more. Thankfully, they went back to belt drive. I dont know the exact measurements of the inner hole but you can always get the standard. But if I remember, the Donut SHOULD work fine for that table. At only $28, I dont see how you could lose here. My bet is that it would sound better than the current mat. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Back in the 1980's when I owned and enjoyed an LP12 for many years I never even thought about changing out the mat--but then in those days I used OEM interconnects and zip-cord as well! I've been using an old Thorens TD-124 (1950's vintage) for many years now and one of the first things I did was remove the old, hard rubber mat that came with it. At first I just put the LP on the aluminum outer platter, but then started trying other mats, including sorbothane (which really muddied things up in my opinion)--eventually I went back to NO mat at all. But then a couple of years ago one of my pals who uses a Garrard 301 (similar in some ways, but INFERIOR to the TD-124) reported having GREAT success with the Ringmat. I ordered one from England and was STUNNED when I opened the package. SEVENY-FIVE DOLLARS for a piece of heavy paper with some thin cork rings glued to it??? I felt totally ripped off!! That is until I slapped it on the table and put "Art Pepper Meets the Rythym Section" on top of it and sat back for a listen. All I can say is that it hasn't been off the table since. I fugure I paid five bucks for the material and seventy bucks for the "carboard engineering." With the Ringmat in place, the music is lively, dynamic, and IN FOCUS--it provides the liveliness of using no mat with the smoothness of rubber mat. The Ringmat just flat-out WORKS on the Thorens. I have NO idea how it it might work with any other table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 ---------------- On 11/1/2002 11:14:24 AM rowooo wrote: MIKE LINDSEY..did you decide to try the Audioquest slate cables? Email me if you did....Thanks ---------------- Yes I did. I ended up getting the bi-wired version and am using them on my ALK'd La Scala's. I like them a lot and notice a slight difference over the Home Depot 12ga I was using previously. To my ears, there seems to be less harshness in the highs and a more open balanced sound. I am very happy with the cables and feel the price is right via AA at the moment... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 Allan, a number of people have commented that this DONUT mat kills the Ringmat. Many owners are Ringmat users as well. As you know, the Linn contingent distrusts all mats with the Ringmat the only one I have seen taken. From what I hear now, this new DONUT mat is far better in all ways forcing the Ringmats to ebay or second systems. I agree with the rubber mat comment. I ONLY found it good on direct drive tables in that it helped an already sad problem inherent in the design As for the Linn, I think the Valhalla, the new springs, better chassis, and armboard made a big improvement in the sound. PAst these upgrades and you get less for your ducats. I dont know what you had your Linn on, but the STAND is SOOOOOO important with that table. Put on a heavy "audiophile" stand or a massive table/shelf etc, and the Linn just DIES. DEAD. THUD. The life really is gone. A light but very rigid stand is the only way to go with the Linn, this from placing mine on 100 things over the last 18 years or so. Also, if the Linn is not setup correctly, welcome mediocrity! That is the reason I hardly ever recommend it here; I dont want to hear the hell I would get! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 I bought my Linn used (I buy almost EVERYTHING I own second-hand!) in about 1985 or so--it was a really early model, mid 70's? It came without a tonearm, but I had an Infinity Black Widow and an SME 3009-III left over as spares from the SOTA I had just sold, and I ended up using the Black Widow. This LP12 had NO upgrades at all. I had the Linn mounted on a shelf in those days. I seemed to be messing around with that table/arm ALL THE FREAKING TIME--it's a tweaker's dream (or nightmare?). But it's a great deck----I didn't think I'd ever sell it until I started messing around with the Thorens and the SPU. I still think old Linns are an amazing value--I see them sell for LESS than one of those crappy Music Halls (sorry--but I think they REEEEK of cheap) all the time. I don't have any idea why anyone would buy a new Rega or Music Hall when a nice, well-cared-for LP12 can be had for a lot less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Donuts cure Ringmat. ......just dreaming of re-writing the thread title....... Do you think it a good upgrade on the MM7? c7s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 For example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1393132267 This is a lot of turntable for very little money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Alan, Where were you when we all decided to buy Music Halls with Kelly as our cheerleader? It did cross my mind about the Linn, but i read, like you say, it was a tweakers dream (or nightmare) so I shied away. Sometimes endless tweaking is not my cup of tea, just like after years and years of tweaking (and tuning) my own pianos, I now just leave my old Chickering closed and always hire a pro tuner to come out to take care of it. I found the endless tweaking got in the way of my experiencing the music somehow......(at least with the piano). -c&s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Earlier this week I was given an old 78 recording to use instead of the ringmat I usually have on top of my (rather heavy) brass platter. I must admit that I think it is an 'improvement' - it seems to change the colour of the music so that voices seem to have more of a physical presence (you realize that voice not only means throat but also chest). Another tweak was a disused rubber ring which comes ftom the lid of a pressure cook. Now this certainly changed the sound by making it more 'quiet' and less 'nervy'. I put it around the outside of the platter and so far I like what I hear. Still, for the price I might try the Donut Mat too. Wolfram BTW: Max (and others), let us know what you think of it in case you can listen to it in your system(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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