The thread of confusion

[mobile homeless]

I enjoyed this response, Dean. It was honest, well-put, and reflective. Points taken. Ultimately, I think we are after the same thing. Indeed, I have always enjoyed our exchanges, even when we didnt agree as I always felt we kept the mind churning, trying to see the other's side.

Well....there was the gun issue...but.. heh..

kh

[Deang]

Kelly -- see, you do it too

I don't understand how you can make a blanket statement regarding high current SET.

Have you heard the Apollos?

Have you heard Apollos with the new KR300BXLS' utilizing the new filiment?

Have you ever heard the KR300BXLS? Or is your assessment of this tube based on your experience with the KR2a3?

Have you heard the Apollos on the RF-7's? Have you heard RF-7's?

Have you heard a Sony 9000es?

Is it possible, that in a certain system, you might find high current SET very involving?

Do you really believe that 3.5 watts of 2a3 on RF7's will bring me closer to experiencing a live event, 'live' in the sense of what kind of music I enjoy, and how I like to enjoy it?

Is it possible for a pair of Apollos and RF-7's to deliver as musical satisfying experience as K-horns and WL monoblocks?

Are there really any absolutes?

The gun thing was awful. Not my finest hour.

[mobile homeless]

My statement was just that. A view based on these things:

1. Hearing various high watt SET amps with low and high efficiency speakers ie 211, 845, higher powered KR tubes. I was not making a very specific statement. I was just saying in that in EVERY single sample of a company that made both high and low watt SET amps, I have preferred the lower watt variety for the SET QUALITIES. The high watt examples DID do other things well. But in every case, didnt make the liquid, ultra palpable immediacy of the low watt SET options in the lineup.

2. From my numerous email /audio compatriots around, especially the ones whose ears I trust. Most of my friends agree with me on this one and outline the same findings. In our discussions, many of the same points are made

3. Finally, in reviews I have read across the board from the guys I like/trust. This is pretty much an accepted point. I might not have agreed totally if I hadnt found the same results myself.

Now Dean, that is not to say the Apollos are not GREAT AMPS! I totally agree here! I am just talking about them exhibiting the different magic that is ONLY found in SET amps. I dont think it comes totally in its own here due to the extreme high voltage running and the many transformers etc, not to mention the SS rectification. On the other hand, these amps will probably SLAY most commercial amps today, especially with less the stellar speakers in the senstivity range.

kh

[Deang]

I guess there are absolutes. It's certainly true about the transformers and steel rectification. I have hum, and I sure wouldn't describe the midrange as "liquid".

The hum reduced with the new tubes. I was surprised by this, but it's still there. It's just something I have to put up with, using the Apollos on a more sensitive speaker than they were designed to run with. I'll take the hum however, and the power that goes along with it.

Randy,

I do believe cables make a difference. I just don't believe the differences are anything like some people make them out to be.

[mobile homeless]

On the cable front, this is such a crazy point and hard to make assessments. I used to "go to the mat" on the cable issue but now let it rest.

But I will add that I HAVE heard cable make HUGE differences in the sound. And I mean as much as a whole new component ie amp, preamp, etc! IT has happened to me more than a few times over the years. In fact, I couldnt lock in on anything that really got me going with my 2A3 monoblocks at first. I tried all sorts of solutions. Some where better than others. I liked the 89 cents worth of Radio Shack 18awg solid core copper over the $975 Transparent Audio Music Wave Plus cables! But when I snapped in the Jon Risch Twisted Cross Connect cables in place...LORDY. Audrey and I were both shocked! IT was a synergistic match with the Moondogs and Cornwalls, a HUGE leap over any of the options I had tried. Improvements came in across the board of the type that didnt need A-B comparisons. It was BLOWN away time. Still have them in. I have tried a few other cables since but these have not been replaced as of yet.

So cables CAN make a huge difference. They can also make the system WORSE and money doesnt come to play. One this is clear.

MIT and TRANSPARENT CABLE STINK ON SET AMPS! Ditto with something like Monster SIGMA

Any of these Network cables or RFI blocking cables sound sluggish/slow and thick. So anyone with MIT or Transparent, dont bother with SET. Dean, if you rememeber way back when, before you had SET, I think I pointed this out. With SET, I find the simpler designs do much better.

kh

[maxg]

Kelly,

I dont want to be picky here but I didnt read any of Dean's postngs as a review - more as an interesting story as to how you can get sidelinned whilst attempting to review one thing into another.

Were Dean presenting a detaled review entitled as such then I would agree that a wider range of material would be essential. As it happens in this case I read Deans account of proceedings as merely his attempts to satisfy his own questions. Therefore my comments stand - its his system and his music and he can choose on the basis of whatever selection of music he feels matches his listening habits and the nrecount the proceedings here.

Any review I have ever made has been in the light of this personal bent. I might argue that my own listening apears to be a litte more broadly based than Dean's and indeed different from, if not greater than, your own.

Therefore I would assess a component on the basis of its performance less with Jazz (about 3% of my listening) and more with Opera (about 40% of my listening), Pink Floyd, Soul, Reggae, various rock greats, large orchestral works, a few string quartets and a couple of piano concerto's.

All of this would make my evaluation effectively useless for anyone ho listened to Indy, for example, solely.

[Randy Bey]

Good thread.

Nice save, Kelly.

No real comment from me except that few of us have the luxury of multiple bits of audio gear (OK, I guess I should say, "some of us", since I know a number of people have audio bone yards) and so must rely upon the ol' change one thing, listen, change it back, listen, decide, method.

Po' folks like me have to sell our old bones for the new stuff. I don't have much except some DIY cables laying around, plus some Hovland caps.

Will be putting Jupiter beeswax coupling caps in my Laurels this weekend, I think.

[Deang]

Hey Randy, since you got Hovlands laying around, and thinking about throwing some Jupiters in -- I can only guess this means you have the Jensens in there right now, it that true?

Kelly, been wanting to try the Risch design for some time. Maybe it's time for me to yank those Monsters. As far as speaker cables go -- The MIT's seemed to do well on the Superamp, but your description of how they sound on SET is dead on.

[Randy Bey]

Yeah, I have the Jensen copper PIO caps in the Laurels right now. Been in there for about a month.

The Jupiters will go in soon.

[Deang]

Are you attempting to remedy something, or just experimenting?

What are the values of the Laurel's coupling caps?

I'm certainly interested in what you find when you pull the PIO's. I've actually been thinking about trying the PIO's -- just to see what they do. I do feel however, that the Hovlands in the Apollos do quite well with RF-7's -- but it would be nice to do a comparison.

What I would really like to do is experiment with the caps in my crossover, but I'm so in love with how the 7's sound as is -- I don't what there is to "fix". Have you done anything to your K-horns, or are the stock?

[Randy Bey]

I went PIO from the Hovlands on advice from Les Lammers. They are .1uF.

I don't think that Hovlands are bad caps; any comparison is between good and very-good.

But I like the Jensen PIOs because they sounded a bit more fluid, a bit more musical, than the Hovlands. This is very minor, only evident in some bits of music and not so much in others.

The beeswax are also Les' suggestion, and I'm replacing a second set of Hovlands that are in the Laurels, so the Jensens will stay in. Old Ron W thought to put those high priced Hovlands across a couple of the 300B pins, so that one must be important to the sound, too.

Will also be going to a 6sn7 driver tube from the 6sl7 that is there now. Lower gain but lower noise as well, not that noise is a problem, but gain is. With my preamp I can't turn the knob more than 90 degrees before the sound is blasting.

I have done a lot to my khorns. I changed the AA to an A by cutting out some parts, most recently.

Also used rope caulk on the squawker/tweeter. Had it off for a while but went back to it, seems to clear up the sound a trifle, nothing too huge a difference.

Also 1/2 filled the woofer rear chamber with fibreglass, this seemed to help low freq. response.

Also stapled felt to the vertical rears to provide a good mate surface with the corner, and put foam tape on the horizontal top piece to isolate the woofer cabinet a bit more.

The rear woofer mouth, a large vertical opening with cloth over it also has a 1/2" strip of wood along the sides to reduce vibrations.

Probably the biggest change of all in terms of sonics was the AA to A crossover. For the positive, that is. I undo all the changes that have no or even negative effects.

[Deang]

The 'A' version is the one with two parts or something like that right? So, you find that simpler is better? Interesting.

I've never seen a schematic for the Laurels, so I don't know how they are laid out. So, two stages, two sets of coupling caps in each amp -- is that how that works?

[sunnysal]

to maintain you sanity, please try not to change more than one component when making your first judegments regarding these units. involving the wires I think is a mistake, at least as the first step. just swap amps and listen for the differences there, that will give the broadstroke guides to where the differences lie between amps. then get into tweaking around to optimize the new versus the old. wires, etc. as a second step. otheriwse you may just go nuts and run screaming from your listening room, just like I have...warm regards, tony

disclaimer: my opinions are based on my narrow exprience and are thus to be construed as such.

[JBryan]

Lots of worthwhile advise from Kelly, et al but I thought I'd chime in anyway. I've played around with a lot of equipment in the last few years and have found that comparing amp designs as diverse as SET and P/P can be trying at best. I've never heard your speakers but I suggest that you consider your listening habits (loud) and that they may require more power than the Apollos' 3.5w provide without compressing the sound.

I should preface that - the room is your first consideration. A flea-powered amp will often be more than enough in a smallish room - even with moderatly efficient speakers. With the same amp in a larger room, you may need an extremely efficient speaker just to get to reasonable listening levels. If your room size is fixed and you want to keep your speakers, then the only piece of the equation you can work with is the amp. The only other variable would be the room's dampening - carpet over concrete with masonry walls and acoustic ceiling sounds alot different than wood floors with drywall walls and ceilings and don't get me started on windows.

If both amps can provide enough power to drive your speakers to the levels you require then great! you're ready to compare - almost. To really do this properly, you're system must match exactly. In my opinion, I like to use cables and wires to EQ a system. For example, if the bass is too boomy, I may switch a cooper IC or wire with a silver one or use a larger gauge wire on the woofer. Its really just a matter of trial and error for me and I'm always amazed how some combinations work when they really shouldn't. If your having trouble hooking up the Scott to your wire - just use simple zip cord for both amps. I definitely wouldn't biwire one amp if I couldn't biwire the other. Keep it simple.

Finally, as Kelly said, you're looking for music that will bring out the best in each amp as well as what you want from them. Your choice of music should be something you're familiar with so keep that in mind as you look for music that highlights detail, separation, bass, voice, imaging, soundstage and anything else you want to hear from your system. The albums you've chosen certainly will demonstrate some of these qualities but not all of them and unfortunately, they were recorded during the darkest days of the industry and suffer from severe compression and smearing from endless overdubs and edits. That's compounded if you're using CDs - especially CDs made before the mid 90s. Of course, in my experience, with most SET amps and HE speakers you will hear the best and worst of a recording (I will never be able to listen to Pink Floyd the same again - there's just not enough alcohol, etc in the world). All things equal, it's then just a matter of taste and only you can decide what sounds good. Sorry for the rant and its just my opinion so don't take offense and have fun, Bryan

[Mike Lindsey]

It's been about 3 weeks since I last posted, as I've been busy getting the Vette ready for some serious road racing next year. Could there be 3 more expensive hobbies than the 3 I have (golf, audio and racing my Corvette)? Well... maybe owning a boat.

Just to let you know Dean, I bi-wire my Scott using a spade to banana converter. I have a couple of extra sets (they sell for $6/pr) that you could use on yours if you're interested. Of course, you would need banana terminators on your amp end. You just pay for the shipping and I'll send 'em out to ya.

As for some of the music, I am in agreement with Tom here. I have seen REO 3 times (all pre 1980) and they rocked the house down. Literally blew Aerosmith off the stage (which isn't saying much). If you want to hear a great double live album, put on REO's "You Get What You Play For". It was recorded around 1977 I think and kicks from start to finish.

I was also a big Journey fan and it all started with Infinity. I will agree, this stuff isn't recorded all that well but the music itself was pretty darn good. I was in bootcamp when I first heard it, and played it every day on my $10 cassette player. Van Halen's first album came out at the same time and those two albums, along with Tune a Piano from REO, literally got me thru basic training.

Mike

[sunnysal]

try general aviation mike! sucks the dollars out of the wallet before you even can get them in!...tony

[Mike Lindsey]

I'll agree there, Tony. However, have you ever heard the saying "If you want to make a small fortune in racing, you need to start with a large fortune!"

Mike

[JBryan]

The second happiest day of a boater's life is buying his first boat. The happiest day is when he sells it...

[sunnysal]

and if you want to take a large fortune and make it into a small fortune...open a restaurant (a quote from a degenerate restaurantuer friend of mine...lol!) I had a 25 foot hunter sloop that I unloaded a few years back and I have to say I miss it. miss the sailing that is, not the constant dollars in maintenance. I am lucky that the plane is paid for almost totally by my company, or else I would have dumped that by now as well. but as my father says to me from time to time "I should have such problems!" LOL! warm regards, Tony

[mobile homeless]

You had a 25ft Hunter sloop? Which model exactly? I have a friend selling the below 25.5 (not that boat though) that I was thinking of getting since the price was right.

kh