Well for what it's worth....

[shoe11]

My new REL Strata III came in yesterday and I've spent the better part of the weekend configuring, integrating, testing it. My conclusion is that the match just doesn't work. Given the incredibly high sensitivity of the 7's and their already very deep bass extension, the REL with it's 100 watt amp and 10" downward driver just doesn't give me anywhere near the impact that the RSW-12 provided. I think I'm going back to my reliable and desperately missed RSW-12 or perhaps no sub at all. The Ears made a comment a while back about the RF-7's with the right amp almost not needing a sub and the more I listen to/learn about them, the more I come into agreement with him on that.

It's not a knock against the REL which I truly feel is a great piece of equipment. It's just that I tried to integrate Apples (RF-7 slam) with Oranges (REL audiophile refinement) and it didn't work.

Questions, comments, whatever welcomed as always.

~shoe

[TheEAR]

Yes the RF7's do not need any sub for most music listening,unless you are a bass maniac.I use the ATI 2505 and the bass slam is awesome(now imagine two pairs of RF7's,one front one back!).

The RSW15 does add even more slam.A good slamin combo

[shoe11]

One thing I found out is that when using the high-level Neutrik connection to the REL, the sensitivity of the RF-7's caused problems. In this setup the REL was connected at the speaker outputs of the amp. The gain controls on the REL do not provide nearly the added oomph that say the dial does on an RSW. The REL with the high level setup picks up it's thump with increased volume at the amp. Well of course as I increased the volume on the amp, the REL started to provide much better output. The bad part is that the 7's are so efficient that by the time the REL finally reached a volume level where it could start to be heard/felt, the 7's were simply lifting the roof off the house! I think if the REL were paired with speakers of modest sensitivity say 87~90, the high level integration would have been alot more successful. This two day experiment has definitely taught me alot.

~shoe

[michael hurd]

So richard e. lord can't keep up to the klipsch ? How's the low end of the REL compared to the rsw12 ? Is it more accurate and extended ?

[Deang]

I quit using a sub with my RF7's a long time ago.

The sub is nice for HT, but for music -- I prefer the RF7's without one.

[michael hurd]

When I play a music cd in my dvd player, I have no sub action at all. I am using the digital input of my receiver, and am too lazy to see if an rca connection will fix that. When I use the tuner, however, the sub is fine. I don't have a problem with a lazy sub amp, because it workd fine for dvd's and everything else. If you could call a jbl arc8 a sub... hahaha. I wish I was working, so I could buy those heresy's and a pw2200 sub. Tisk, tisk.

[shoe11]

----------------

On 12/22/2002 11:22:45 PM michael hurd wrote:

So richard e. lord can't keep up to the klipsch ? How's the low end of the REL compared to the rsw12 ? Is it more accurate and extended ?

----------------

While Mr. Lord makes very high quality pieces, I don't believe that he ever designed his subs to be paired with the high sensitive slam machine that is the RF-7's. Kinda sobering when your sub has a single 10" driver while your supposedly "small" main channels have 4 of them!

Honestly I learned alot about the two different schools of thought on bass and it's place in movies and music. The REL approaches bass as sub bass and only bass necessary to fill out the lowest octaves. There is no hint of "slam" with the REL. The bass provided to me is very tight and is more accurate relative to the RSW's. As far as extension goes after trying several different placements, spikes/no spikes, different connections, I just could not get the extension that was promised.

While the RSW's provide very good bass accuracy, they give up a little in order to provide a much better slam/punch. Additionally I think the much larger built-in amp of the RSW's is essential with the RF-7's. As I found with the REL and the high level connection, it will provide solid bass as you crank up your amplifier, but given the extremely high sensitivity of the 7's, by the time you get there the 7's are just beating the hell out of you. With the much larger internal amp in the RSW, you can properly adjust the amount of power needed for the sub independent of your mains. Unless your front speakers are of average sensitivity, the integration is going to be difficult.

Again let me emphasize, I think the REL is a great subwoofer, I just don't think that it is a good match for the 7's. From having listened to the REL with the Sonus Faber Concerto's and Grand Piano's, I have no doubt that it can and does provide all it advertises. If I had those speakers which rate around 88~90 on a sensitivity scale with the REL, the high level connection and integration would have been much easier and would really show what the REL is capable of.

So now the million dollar question becomes....Do I have my friendly local salesperson order in a pair of Concertos/Grand Pianos to audition with the REL or do I have him order me back old reliable RSW-12 or new and enticing RSW-15? One thing I'm certain of, it's either Sonus/REL or RF-7/RSW. There will be no more mixing apples and oranges.

~shoe

[iDunno]

Anyway you can buy the STUDIO III from REL. I heard it expensive but has 2x10" drivers.

[TheEAR]

Shoe,

REL does make powerful subwoofers,they are however very expensive(Stadium,Stentor III and Studio II)

The twin driver Studio uses two 10" Volt drivers powered by a big amp in a big cabinet.The level of quality both sound and materials used is as good as it gets.The monster weighs close to 100Kg!And costs almost 10 grand!It will keep up with the RF7's,but its so expensive it better.

Enter the Aerial Acousics SW12,at half the REL Studio price this sub has the same outstanding built quality and I would say as much output where it counts,it goes deep(16Hz solid)and loud.Plus you can order the SW in just about any gorgeous finish at a small premium(err 500-$1000).

And why not talk about the Revel B15,it has both slam and deep bass output to stress the RF7's!The ultra long throw 15" bruiser with a 1000W RMS amp are not there for show,this beast delivers,more then the HGS18,and it will blur your vision with SPL.And its up there with Aerial and REL in the sound quality departament.Under 3K!

If you are a cheap stake like most here(LOL)you have few options,the first is the best sub Klipsch ever made,the RSW15.It comes in the quality real wood finish and has some serious slam.Or B you go the SVS Ultra route and bring home a small water heater shaped "gorgeous"...LOL sub with massive output.The SVS Ultra finish is just about as gorgeous as HSU's,utilitarian...read oddinary.But the drivers used in the SVS Plus and Ultra series belong with the elite.If you dont want to be a cheap stake and want massive output and great looks consider the SVS SS,performance of a Ultra plus a quality finish for the discriminating audiophile.

[shoe11]

Ear,

One other brand I am interested in is the Sunfire line. I'd be interested in hearing your or anyone's opinion on how the Sunfire subs grade out compared to the others that you've mentioned? Say the True Subwoofer Signature or the Mark IV? If there are any other Sunfire models I should consider, I'd appreciate the information.

I would say at this point the most likely choice for me will be the RSW-15. I've really been pleased with the performance of the RSW-10 and 12 that I've owned. I might as well go ahead and experience the "big daddy" first hand for myself. I know I won't be disappointed.

Any comments on my Sunfire question would be appreciated.

~shoe

[TheEAR]

Shoe,

I have the whole Sunfire lineup! The Sunfire Signature beats the RSW15 on low bass,and below 30Hz it takes a easy win.

The Signature can keep up with RF7's with no problems,I think someone on the Klipsch board has K-Horns with a Signature and the combination is great.

A more powerful Signature is the Revel B15.You pay one grand more and get double the acoustic output.Also the Revel goes around 4-5Hz deeper then the Signature.The Signature is good down to a honest 20Hz(around 100dB),its strongest point is at 31.5Hz(117dB solid!this is loud from one small cube).

Well more later,at work now.

[BLOOMIS914]

Shoe- I am surprised no one has mentioned DIY subs....I was a doubting thomas for a long time until I did all of my homework. I almost bought SVS Ultras but wanted to give it a shot. I built a 214L DIY Tempest from Adire Audio with a 250W plate Amp in a beautiful cabinet that is absolutely awesome in SPL, tightness and is tuned to 15.4 Hz..... If you have the space for a 22" x 22" x 37.5" tall box then you are a candidate. Mine was recently added to the Adire Audio website in their DIY gallery as one of their showcase subs.......My total investment was around $500 max. and build quality is gorgeous, like a piece of custom furniture.

You can get the detailed blueprints at the Adire audio website or if you want e-mail me as I am building two more right now for friends. A close friend is doing all the custom cabinet work/building and I do all the speaker, amp, ports, stuffing and final assembly and we sell them.

You can see my recent thread here in the subwoofer section regarding my project or e-mail me at bloomis914@aol.com.

Give it a try, you won't regret it.

Brett

[aab3rd]

Shoe,

I have a Sunfire MKII for sale. I will let The Ears tell you about it so as not to try to "sell" it to you. It is a great sub but I am giong to get something with a wood veneer so as to match a pair of walnut Forte Is I just bought. If interested e-mail me at aab3rd@bellsouth.net or PM me. It is in perfect condition with box and manual and it was bought from an authorized dealer in Memphis, TN.

[mike stehr]

What the hell is a cheap stake?

Is it bad meat? Or a rotted stick you stuff in the ground?

[Underhanded Penguin]

"Cheap Stake" LOL

Mike, am I the only person that appreciates this joke!!?? Good one!

[shoe11]

I finally decided just to stick with the RSW-12. Given that I have the 7's, it's more than enough sub for my use (primarily music) and has enough oomph for HT use as well. Of course the one I took back to get the REL is now gone, so my salesguy ordered me a brand new one and we all know that happiness is a brand new Klipsch. Should be in tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone for their followup comments/recommendations.

~shoe

[skonopa]

Shoe11 said:

My new REL Strata III came in yesterday and I've spent the better part of the weekend configuring, integrating, testing it. My conclusion is that the match just doesn't work.

Ahh, thats a shame. The REL are some nice subs. I was able to get my Storm III to work pretty well with my RF-7s. Maybe because it is the little larger/more powerful model. Also, I got mine right in the corner and that seems to help, as well as running it a little on the hot side. In a few years, I may give that new sub that SVS is coming out with a serious consideration, though .

Well, what works from some don't work for others - tis part of the fun of audio .

[shoe11]

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On 12/27/2002 3:51:44 PM skonopa wrote:

Well, what works from some don't work for others - tis part of the fun of audio

.

----------------

skonopa,

I had a feeling I'd hear from you.

For the record, I am only referring to the RF-7 and the Strata III. I'm sure that there are applications for which the Strata would be ideal. REL's are very well made, have great adjustability, and I love the high input connection. The only thing missing is a more substantial power amp for a bit more punch.

~shoe

[skonopa]

Shoe11 said:

The only thing missing is a more substantial power amp for a bit more punch.

I do agree with that. To be honost, I wish my Storm III had say a 500 watt amp instead of the measly sounding 150 watts/300 watts peak. Still, I was able to get mine to produce and certainly do enjoy it. Either way, good luck in your quest to find a sub that works for you, although it seems like the RSW-12 does seem like a good match for you. You ought to see if you can try an RSW-15.