What ever happend to Equalizers?

[heresy2guy]

I just looked at the H/K website but it doesn't say anything about dynamic headroom ratings for the 430 - nor any other H/K model to boot. HDBRbuilder, you have any idea what it might be? You seem to know a heck of a lot about the H/K series so I thought I'd ask you. By the way, H/K's dual power setup seemed to be a way of delivering high dynamic headroom, so there would always be plenty of reserves when the amp called for more power on the musical peaks. That way it could deliver the necessary juice instead of running dry and producing distortion that would lead to clipping. Am I on the right track here???

[HDBRbuilder]

The twin-power will allow the amp to be less likely to clip when attempting to provide the extreme requirements of complex music passages, but, when you already have the tone controls pushed beyond "flat' you are already pushing it towards clipping to begin with by providing signal boost to the amplifier...and ALL amplifiers already have MORE room on their volume controls than they SHOULD HAVE to begin with...so in cranking the volume up way high you are more than doubling the tendency of the amp to clip with a boosted signal already running into it! Therefore, the point at which it begins to clip will be farther back DOWN the volume scale than it would be if the tone controls were set "flat" to begin with! This is the general rule of thumb when using ANY amplifier, twin-powered or not! Boosting a signal provides more distortion, the combination of a boosted signal and increased distortion causes the amp to need more current, and that in turn causes it to go into clipping sooner as you turn the volume up...as its needs begin to exceed the current available.

As for how measurements are derived to get stated specs...there is a BIG difference between slapping an 8 ohm resistor across a pair of speaker-out connections, and actually having a speaker hooked up there!

[Terry N. Cruse]

Good Job Andy,

To quote the master, " Don't adjust my speakers...Adjust your room." PWK referred to them as BUZZ BOXES. What goes in......

tc

[jdm56]

In reality, I think every audioknut (pardon the "Linn-speak") could benefit from a nice digital parametric EQ similar to the one built into my old Sony TAE-1000ES A/V preamp which resides in my humble HT rig. Unless of course their room has no walls, floor or ceiling, thereby removing the possibility of room resonances occurring.

[heresy2guy]

All I can say is that I've never listened to any setup, regardless of the amp/speaker combination, that didn't sound better to me when you increased the treble substantially. Some systems needed very little increase in the bass, but some increase has always been dialed in to achieve "good" sound. I happen to think that having the bass and treble settings at neutral makes for a duller, more bland and thus inferior sound. Come to think of it, I've never seen anybody who had his system's tonal settings at neutral - you're the first hdbrbuilder! LOL - but I have seen a number of people who leave the loudness setting in the off position.

[mobile homeless]

If this is true, than you have probably never really listened to extremely transparent and open electronics with quality speakers. I really think the rotation of the treble knob in the positive direction an attempt to achieve more transparency at the expense of naturalness. Rarely does the clockwise rotation of the treble knob really bring a more natural sound. Better electronics would quell this need I believe. Also, if one is used to listening to a hot setup, this becomes the goal to shoot for, though more often than not, it is exactly that...HOT. Most mediocre digital actually benefits from a reduction in treble energy, unfortunately.

kh

[HDBRbuilder]

Heresy2guy,

I may be the first you have noticed, but I am certainly NOT the first. If you pay more attention on this forum you will find that the vast majority of folks here set their controls "flat"(or completely bypass them)...or seek out equipment with which they CAN set those controls to "flat"....some equipment just doesn't produce the highs and bass strongly enough to replicate the instruments used to make the recordings...and of course, some speakers with flat frequency response curves don't produce bass low enough to do so. And, of course, everyone's hearing is different. Most of the youth I see around me on an everyday basis have ALREADY been listening to bass and treble so intensely boosted at such high decibels, that their hearing is permanently damaged in those extremes, though trying to explain this to them is an excercise in futility...and they will tend to set those controls up beyond flat for the rest of their lives due to this hearing loss, in order to even approach hearing anything close to the original performance...sadly!!

If the speakers are capable of reproduction of a good frequency response curve, and the equipment is capable of providing the input needed for those speakers to do so, then "flat" settings will get you the reproduced performance as it was intended to be. Unless the recording "engineers"(and I use that term very loosely), the recording equipment used, and the performers were not worth a damn to begin with!! Pretty simple!

[heresy2guy]

Well, I guess the Heresy's (both originals and IIs) and the assorted KEFs hooked to Nakamichi, Proton, NAD & Adcom units are of subpar quality and my ears are blown after nearly 30 years on this earth because I stand by what I said above - flat/neutral tonal settings sound BLAH!

[minn_male42]

hersey2guy,

i'm not sure what you're listening to but my klf30's being pushed by my carver m400t with a pioneer elite receiver (using pre-outs) sound extremely detailed, clear, and in your face with the treble set at flat!

and this is after working with high school bands for 16 years...(marching band drumlines)....i've since changed professions...

russ

[Terry N. Cruse]

OK... Im a nice guy...But you pushed me to it.

If it does not sound good FLAT.... Don't give it away...Throw it away....

[Terry N. Cruse]

OK... Im a nice guy...But you pushed me to it.

If it does not sound good FLAT.... Don't give it away...Throw it away....

[Terry N. Cruse]

OK... Im a nice guy...But you pushed me to it.

If it does not sound good FLAT.... Don't give it away...Throw it away....

[heresy2guy]

Ok - I'll throw it, but you'd better duck Terry 'cause it's a coming YOUR way!!

LOL

[jdm56]

Everybodys hearing is unique to them. Could be a healthy clockwise spin of the old treble adjuster produces subjectively flatter response in Heresy2guy's auditory receptors.

[mobile homeless]

That's all fine and dandy, but when and IF recommendations and descriptions of gear are made, and this tad bit of inside foible information is not divulged, then problems arise beyond the particular individual's taste. I actually find this comes into play within this forum all too often. Most in here think this is fine, and that it's a common happening. On the other hand, I find it puts a hidden spin on the casual description of a product's worth or performance, and for newbies that wander in, with little knowledge of the user/reviewer's experience, foibles, or taste, misinformation is likely to occur.

But it goes without saying that all are experts within the Land of Internet. And Agent X's recommendation/opinion can easily hold the same weight as Operative Y's, even though Agent X has only been exposed to a fractionally small amount of samples compared to Operative Y. And factor in Operative Y's love of atonal French Organ Grinder Chants and you see the problem.

Unavoidable, yes. But all should be aware and read carefully between, around, and within the lines. I don't see this last advice taken as much as it should, however.

kh

[Audio Flynn]

Mobile,

True it takes exposure to a poster sometimes for weeks and even months to figure out if they have their stuff together.

IMHO some of the contributors I can "beleive in" all of the time even if I disagree with an item although depth and accurracy of contribution is significant.

1. Mobile

2. NOS 440

3. Deang

4. LEOK

5. AL K

6. Ray Garrisson

There are others I cannot think of now.

Now EQ I know nothing about.

I try to get the distortion minimized in my systems and do not feel an EQ contributes to this objective.

Merry Christmas.

Rick

[minn_male42]

equalizers are used primarily to make up for inadequecies in speakers (i.e. bose type systems or very bad speakers) or severe room problems (high school gymnasiums)....

so, if you are convinced you need to use an equalizer in your system what category do you fall in?....

(just my humble opinion as a former music educator, semi-pro musician, and seller of pro audio equipment)...

russ

[Soundthought]

Hello all.

What a strongly opinionated thread.

You would think were talking politics or something. LOL

I believe there are many good applications for an EQ.

Taming acoustical issues without heavy room treatment or reconstruction.

Flavoring the sound to ones' own personal liking.

Compensating for incompetent sources or source material.

Or... Just to play around with and stare at the graphic EQ.

FWIW. Spending time staring at a graphic EQ can be very educational.

I personally listen to different systems in accordance with my particular needs.

My HT has an EQ from the CD changer to the receiver but nothing from my DVD and CD burner to the receiver.

Then again, I loop the CD changer through the EQ to the CD burner.

Again, Just my personal preference for which I have my reasons.

My office has my tubes playing my Fortes with nothing but source input, yet I have an old Kenwood KRV8070 running my Forte IIs with a Yamaha GE-60 looped in.

Both set ups drawing from the same sources, yet acheiving totally different sounds.

Both have their specific place in my system.

So it really becomes a matter of what your shooting for.

I've got it clean.

And I've got it dirty.

Love it both ways.

John

[HDBRbuilder]

Maybe my entire point was missed? I dunno...but it sure seems so.

It matters not whether one's "auditory receptors" need a "healthy clockwise spin" of the old treble adjuster. The point is, that if one is listening the the ORIGINAL PERFORMANCE, then one has NO ABILITY TO MAKE ANY HEALTHY TREBLE ADJUSTMENTS to begin with. And if one's equipment is truly capable of reproducing accurate sound reproduction from an accurate recording of this original performance, then setting the controls to flat is how it SHOULD most closely replicate that original performance. Therefore, with the controls set at flat, the listener's auditory receptors will hear the SAME THING they did AT the original performance! So auditory receptor differences have nothing to do with it!! It is a case of a personal bias toward SHAPING the sound and nothing more.

In other words, if you are treble-deaf and go to a live performance, you are just gonna miss out on the treble there. And when you get home and listen to an accurate recording of that same performance through quality audio equipment, it is still gonna cause you to miss out on the treble if you have the controls set flat....but it will also STILL sound like the live performance! And since you know no difference because you have ALWAYS been treble-deaf, then it makes no difference, because the sound of the two performances, one live and the other a recording of it, are identical to your ears! Pretty simple! Therefore, if you increase the treble adjustment in this case, it is STILL a personal bias toward a shaping of the sound, and NOT your desire to hear an accurate reproduction of the original performance! Again, pretty simple!

My other point is the damage you are likely to inflict on your speakers by severely increasing the gain of your tone controls beyond their "flat" setting...especially when severely increasing the volume of the amplifier. And my statements pertaining to this still stand!

Personally I could give a damn less what people do with their adjustments...after all, it is THEIR equipment...I was just trying to make a couple of points here! But when I have recommended a piece of equipment, and one who has made a purchase based upon my recommendation is likely gonna damage a piece of his equipment by continuing his previous habits of potentially endangering the equipment, then I feel compelled to remind that individual of the possibility of what that habit will cause! In doing so, I feel that I am absolved of any blame once the person gets said piece of equipment and damages some of his equipment by ignoring my advice. Once again, pretty simple!

One final point re: the H/K 430 receiver. Since the contour control(loudness) automatically lessens its impact(contour) as the volume is increased, eventually having no impact at all...then it doesn't make any difference whether it is turned off or not as you increase the volume...except possibly in cases where the tone controls have been severely adjusted up beyond their "flat" settings...and this adjustment can cause the contour to adversely affect the drivers at lower volume settings than where its "cut-out" point occurs.

[heresy2guy]

With respect to recorded music and flat settings, I don't see the point. Keep it flat and hear what is was like when they recorded it, if your equipment is good? Hmmmm I don't see it that way. Why? Because the recorded (finished) product that's finally burned onto the disc has been mixed and digitally enhanced to high hell in order to get the sound the musicians and technicians want as the final product - not necessarily the sound that came out of the singer's mouth or from the band's instruments. All you have to do is see a band live to realize that with a few exceptions (the Eagles come to mind) what you hear is NOTHING like what was on the CD they made that you happened to purchase. Most of the concerts I've been to have been musical disappointments because they don't sound anything like their recordings. Why? Because the recordings have been "doctored" to sound a certain way and when you hear them in concert you're hearing them "live" and the live version tends to sound nothing like the recorded version. So with respect to hearing the music the way it was recorded "live," I just don't see it because the live version is NOT what is on a CD that's sold to the public, unless of course, it's one taken from a concert, which they then label "live," unlike the studio which is most certainly not. If you want to hear how the music sounds live and all original, then see a concert, do NOT buy a CD and play it on your audio system. Playing a CD with the tonal settings flat gives you the desired mixed recording done by the audio technicians as opposed to the original sound that eminated from the singer's voice and the band's instruments. If record companies sold the pure, unmixed, unrefined sound straight from the mouths and instruments of the band I think we would all be in for extreme disappointment. Why worry about keeping "pure" something that, by the nature of the whole recording/mixing/editing process is NOT? I do understand the point about keeping the tonal settings neutral in order to try to deliver the sound burned onto the CD but that's not the "real" or original sound during the perfomance. There's a difference. I should also point out that while PWK's comment about leaving the sound and his speakers alone has merit, it's to the point of being almost completely impractical since many people cannot afford to build the perfect sound room onto their home or convert an empty room into an "appropriate" sound room. In my opinion, this is main reason EQs and tonal adjustments are made available and are most often used. I do not know what the "best" tube amp is, but I feel stongly that if you were to connect it to a pair of Khorns and then auditioned the setup in 50 different homes you'd get pretty darn close to 50 different tonal characteristics and thus 50 different "sounds." Some homes may need to boost or reduce the bass, midrange, and or treble depending upon each room's size, physical make up, items found within it, etc. Achieving to recreate the exact sound (after the mixing let's not forget) that's burned onto a CD is a commendable effort, but it does little good of said sound, well, sounds crappy depending on your listening room's characteristics. What good is having the equipment to replicate the exact sound burned onto the CD if you don't have an acoustically suitable (and thus darn-near perfect) room that will enable you to hear all of it? Tonal settings and EQs are needed tools in my opinion based on what I said above because we all have different listening environments that will absolutely and without question affect the sound we hear, regardless of equipment used.