Erik Mandaville Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Wow! It's getting to the point where one can simply hop onto this forum for a peep-show of the hottest-looking DIY audio gear. Looks are but of secondary importance, however. I'd much rather see something like "Hey you all, have a look at this neat schematic of a shunt-regulated, push-pull preamp." Or for those not so shematic-familiar, perhaps a URL link to a website more appropriately set up for promotional purposes. Jeez, even this is too long of a post! It's the weekend, and there's lots of music waiting to be heard! Erik ...and to think of the nonsense someone as helpful as Al Klappenberg has had to put up with?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Erik, Quite honestly, and with all due respect, I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you explain further? Confused, Chris "All your bases are belong to us" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 11, 2003 Author Share Posted January 11, 2003 Hi! Sure, I'll briefly explain what I meant: I think a certain form etiquette is appropriate. I think discussion and sharing of Klipsch and other audio products is perfectly fine. Friendly disagreement is also well and good. But I think it's very easy to stretch the envelope, as it were, in terms of the manner in which products are 'shared' with the forum community. It's one thing to discuss the subjective merits (or lack-there-of)of such machines and preamplifiers, amplifiers, speakers, etc., but I think there can be a fine line between that and what starts to look rather like commercial enterprise. High quality illustrations that accompany topics of discussion can be enormously helpful and absolutely interesting. It's when they begin to take on certain billboard qualities that I (and this is just my opinion -- it doesn't make me right!)begin to feel that there (again in my opinion) begins to be somewhat of a compromise of the above mentioned 'forum etiquette.' In the end, I have the freedom to disregard such (often very subtle)free-advertising, and carry on with my own affairs -- just as others may take advantage of the opportunity in a way that may come to involve an 'exchange' of some sort.... Do you understand? Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Erik, Gotcha. Like the judge said, and I'm paraphrasing, "I may not be able to give you a definition of pornography, but I know it when I when I see it." Its hard to argue with you on that point. But at the same time, can some of what you describe as "rather like commercial enterprise" be described more accurately as excessive exuberance on forum members parts? Like maybe me. I'm truly sorry if my excitement over some new records came off as a commercial endorsement or enticement. If you're talking about Kelly's endorsement of his friend's equipment, I could see how it might be construed as commercial in nature. But I doubt it is, at least not in a "Let's make some bucks" way. IMHO Mobile just gets very excited about equipment he likes and possesses considerable technical skills in how to communicate such in a forum like this. Maybe it's good to sometimes ask ourselves what's more important, our own intentions or someone else's perception of our intentions. Often, they can be quite different. Regards, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Erik, point taken ... As far as the 6SN7 pre-amp and Pantheon gear Kelly has been "promoting", keep in mind that the 6SN7 is a favorite amoungst tubers/hornies (I have one myself) and I've looked under the hood at this pre-amp. It's unbelieveable, especially at this price point. Caveat emptor, but Kelly's not making a commission on this, and he's doing us a favor by putting it out there as an option for us if we want to bite. I've got one on order but have no illusions that others need to follow. BTW, I also have five of Al's networks and love them, finding them a reasonable price for what I got in return. And yes, there is a fine line between theory, practical art and selfish promotion. In this case, though, I think we're well-grounded on this slippery slope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 11, 2003 Author Share Posted January 11, 2003 Hey, Chris -- very good response. I appreciate your feedback. As I said, in the end we should be allowed to interpret forum information and material in our own way. Again, I didn't say I was 'right' about this. It was intended as rather a 'general' sort of thought. I honestly didn't read your post, and I was really referring to what might be described as a compilation of posts that to me may have looked more promotional in nature than enthusiasm. But both of those factors can appear similar. I have know problem with Kelly. He and I have communicated a number of times, and there are aspects of our systems that are very similar -- but each slightly altered (I'm talking about our amplifiers...)to fit our personal tastes. For example: He likes to use oil capacitors in coupling applications, and I generally don't. Neither of us is 'right' or 'wrong'. Moreover, I wish I had the computer skills he does to share many of the things (mainly preamplifiers) I've built from scratch (which would be an example of my enthusiasm. Had I that ability, I would, for what I believe would be appropriate in general -- and for my own peace of mind in particular -- qualify any illustration or picture by saying they were not for commercial purposes, but rather just to share. Some of what's come up recently looks like a page torn out of Stereophile. Have a great weekend, Chris, and thanks again for you input. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 This is definitely not a big money making enterprise. It was my idea when I visited my friend in Quebec after seeing and hearing his gear that he should make this stuff for others, and not concentrate on PROFIT as his sole motive, instead going for the quality, build, circuit, execution, and appearance of the piece, something NO ONE does in the audio marketplace. That is how this whole project started. Jean-Francois is getting his Ph-D in Mining/Engineering and will more than likely be teaching as his full time job. Music and tube audio is his hobby and building amps is a passion. He is in the middle writing his final dissertation. Yesterday he calulated how much he is making an hour for building these amps. Sadly, it is hovering around minimum WAGE in US dollars!!!! So while I see your point, Chris and Chris make valid and more pertinent points in relation to this offering. In a way, this whole thing is more a SERVICE than a commercial enterprise. And I have been very excited in being a part in bringing something to the table that does NOT HAVE money making and proft margin as it's chief goal! If you add up the parts and man hours to solder, design, have the wood made, chassis' punched, and finished, and look at the QUALITY of the work, the price of these pieces is actually TOO LOW. Maybe later they will be raised but right now, this is more a SERVICE than a profit machine. I do understand you concern about the bandwidth being taken up with the pics and I can assure you, it's only out of the excitement of the whole thing. It wont be a common occurance. That being said, remember that I post MANY MANY shots of Al K's crossovers with links to his site, something you used with vigor. And his profit margin is 10 times what these amps are. I kind of resent the insinuation here. But I understand the concern. Point taken. Lastly, I have given more of my FREE time in helping here with advice, posts, pictures, schematics than just about anyone in two channel, to the point where it's actually affecting my own work. NONE OF IT WAS FOR PROFIT. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 11, 2003 Author Share Posted January 11, 2003 Hey again, Chris: If you check out my gear, you'll see I also use a 6SN7 based preamp. A fellow forum member sent me his to repair, which I ended virtually completely rebuilding, almost all of which was done without a schematic. I've got an earlier AES model linestage. My Moondogs also of course use 6SN7s as input and driver stages... I've scratch built a number of preamps, one which even used a single sub-mini tube, that cost me hardly anything to build -- and whose performance comes very, very close to the AE-1. So I understand fairly well about the interest in 6SN7s -- and I wholeheartedly agree. Well, I told myself I was going to very little time on the computer talking about audio machines this weekend. I'm trying to stay away from blabbing about my equipment (fun at times)much more than closely and seriously listening to it. Take care, and have a good weekend, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 11, 2003 Author Share Posted January 11, 2003 Hey, Kelly: Would you please define your word "SERVICE" in this context? My feeling is that semantics is something which could figure prominantly, here.... Sheesh! I gotta get off this stupid computer and go turn on my amps! Bye you all! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 My amps are already on and playing. They never get turned off except to change tubes. Another thing we dont agree on but I aint writing without listening. Right now it's a morning session of Bill Evans at the Village Vanguard on original vinyl. I will hedge a bit my system is up and running with good tunes both vinyl and digital more than 99.9%. It was playing till 4am last night (when I got those pics to play with at 1am). It was playing good stuff by 8am. I'll have shots of the internal wiring and layout too. I'll see if I can get the schematic for you. Anything else? On a final note, most people within here dont BUILD their own amps. This is for THEM. It's a new piece at a USED price. In addition, I spend an equal amount of time talking parts and schematics for the few that do (remember the schematics I posted to my own server ie TYpe A Crossover/Alk/Type B/Eico/Scott/Moondog/JE LABs/Angela etc most of it MADE by me using my time for ZERO dollars). We are pretty tight community here in 2 Channel. Craig is starting out his own venture repairing VINTAGE amps, all born from his time in 2 Channel. Most here understand the balance. This isnt Billy Bob Thornton. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 man that last line made me laugh my coffee onto my keyboard. kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 I think we have done a pretty good job as a community in not jumping the un-spoken line into commerciality. Kelly has demonstrated time and time again not only his genuine enthusiasm for our hobby but a selfless willingness to help out fellow enthusiasts. I can remember only one occasion where I saw what I considered a blatant violation of the "no selling" etiquette (by a young b-board member who probably doesn not yet know any better) BUT I, for one, am quite happy with the results of our self-policing to date in our mutual desire to keep this forum from become a marketplace. warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornwaller Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 I have been 'biting my tongue' so to speak since this topic started, now it's time to chime in. I appreciate any and all information I receive on this forum; whether it borders on the commercial or not! Let's face it, when doing research previous to a purchase don't we all seek commercial sources? Further, the amount of it on this forum is so scant I can't imagine anyone complaining about it unless they are jealous. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! Cornwaller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 When I discovered, a few years ago, the degree to which the true capabilities of Klipsch speakers is devastated by mismatched electronics, my first question was, "Where do I get appropriate electronics?" I asked around, looked around, gave up and built my own. Not everyone can do that. Equipment that people who frequent this site make available, or refer to, is not generally known outside of a small collection of us who have done some pretty serious searching. For someone who would like good sound, but doesn't have the skills and/or experience some of us have, finding good sound, at all, much less at a reasonable price, would be impossible. I think references to equipment that people may purchase in order to hear what these speakers can do is an important contribution to the audiophile community. If we want to help keep horn speakers an option for excellent sound, then we have to help people achieve that sound. In my own case, building my own equipment was only a start. Information I have obtained here, and hope to obtain in the future, have led to improvements that have led to sound quality I never even thought existed. A short list: Dynamat, Madisound, Solen, Jensen, Hovland, Welborne. Sources and prices helped me compare, understand, and finally purchase. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Hey, I'm with you Mark, even if you have Humbolted from the shadow of the Golden Gate. There is plenty of room on this Forum for some cottage industry folks who contribute far more to the general Forum understanding by their insightful posts that tend to float most all our boats... without costing us a dime. I think Al is a good example... a Klipsch owner that cares enough to lend a hand whether a sheckel flows back to him or not. Tom Vodhanel, another infrequent poster with a product who was a Klipsch legend owner/booster and DIY bass enthusiast long before SVS. Neither Al nor Tom routinely troll these waters looking for any takers of their particular products. Those few who have hit this board with a thinly veiled commercial bent are usually drummed into leaving by the voracious attacks of posters who smell their self-centered prattle a mile away. They usually give themselves away by posting the same sleezy come-on on several different areas of the Forum... usually with some innocent question and a link to whatever they are promoting. And NOZ fits right in... lots of general help and good natured fun without tooting his own totally tubular horns at every opportunity! Yep, we have a good group and newbies are welcome whether they have a question or an answer... but the blood sucking, sneaky Buffleheads who would lure Forum members into dark commercial waters will be dead ducks by popular Forum friends pecking posts. Yep, somethings in this world do go right (even without political regard). =HornEd PS: While Buffleheads are Canada's smallest deep diving duck... they were also popular targets on the Atlantic flyway. Why they even helped green up the shores of Jersey to improve the view for a cluless Reference earful. By no means was it meant to be an attack on our Canadian Forum contingent. Somehow, the image conjured up by the word "Bufflehead" seems to fit some unsavory posters... but it is not nearly so harsh as calling them out as a brazen "Bustard"... now there's an ugly bird to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Erik, you have a message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 I think the last 1/2 dozen post sum up how I feel as well. This forum is about freedom. Promote away! As far as I'm concerned, this forum is about anything that makes Klipsch sound better. If I want anal retentiveness -- I'll visit the Asylum. This preamp being made available to forum members is a freaking blessing. Why the hell kick a gift horse in the mouth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Klipsch Forum function and purpose .........Is to waste as much of are time as possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Craig, what happened to your face? You look like Tom Brennen:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 Erik, before this thread turns a new page, I just wanted to say "thanks" for starting a GOOD discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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