jt1stcav Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Audio Flynn and Dean made good points recently on solid-state amplification and horns...Flynn: "Klipsch does not sound good at certain SPL levels with "run of the mill" SS!"...Dean: "I can't comprehend how anyone can listen to any horn speaker with a completely solid state front end. They must have a quarter ton of wax build up in their ears." I'm on a limited budget, and I have no intentions on parting with my classic McIntosh MC250 (if a super hot deal on a tube amp presented itself, I may reconsider). I've read in this forum a good combination to consider is having a high-quality SS amp with an equally good used/vintage vacuum tube preamp (preferably with 2 outputs for an extra subwoofer) and a phono stage (preferred, but not mandatory) on the cheap. Any comments would be greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I agree bad ss gear can't hide form revealing klipsch. Although I've done comparisons with my ss & tube amps and my ss amp can really hold its own. Tell You the truth I could live with either one. They both have there strength and weaknesses, but good ss can make those Klipsch sing at any spl, IMHO!! Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 I would imagine so, rf3iicrazy. My Mac MC250 with its Autoformers is the smoothest, most tube-like sounding SS amplifier I've ever owned. The MC7200 I previously owned came in a close second (and it did not have Autoformers), and my old Carver TFM-35x third (it's Transfer Function Modified design was to immitate tube characteristics). My Cornwalls sound outstanding with the MC250, but there's no arguement that a damn good SET or P/P vacuum tube amp would really make 'em sing! But I have no intentions on replacing the Mac amp, so I think a high quality tube preamp (and maybe even a tubed CD player from JoLida, Ajoe Tjoeb, Shanling, etc.) would give me the best of both worlds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whell Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Try hard....very very hard...not to get too sucked in by the opinion leaders here who are strong advocates for tube equipment. I'd have a hard time believing that your Mac amp doesn't sound great with your Klipsch, and would reject the notion that it would sound multiples better to your ear with tubes inserted in the signal path. If you can get a loaner on a tube preamp, and if experimenting would help you sleep better at night to exercise the notion that you might be missing something, then by all means experiment, provided you're not spending too many of your hard earned duckets to fund the experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 Mike, I appreciate your reply! It's true that some swear by tubes and that they're the ultimate in sound reproduction for any Klipsch. For a short time last year, I did own an AMC CVT1030s vacuum tube preamp. I even rolled tubes and found that it did alter the sound in a major way (to my ears), but it was an entry-level preamp with quality-control issues that I just couldn't get used to, so I sold it on eBay for almost twice what I paid for it. Prior to that, I owned a vintage Carver C-4000 solid-state preamp that I was quite pleased with. But it's still a toss up...in my current setup, I bypass a preamp altogether by connecting my CD player directly to my Mac amp, but without the use of my turntable, cassette deck and subwoofer! If I came across a great deal on a SS McIntosh C36 preamp, I'd jump on it pronto! Ditto to a conrad-johnson PV-8 tube preamp. I just don't know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 JT1, Yes a tube preamp with SS sounds good. I used a AES-AE3 tube with a Parasound HCA1500 SS amp with a pair of Heresy's. The sound was very good. I then changed out my Parasound with a pair of Wright's WPA 3.5. I like this combo as well. I changed the Heresy's out with a pair of Lascala's which made a big improvement. The week before xmas I scored a pair of Cornwalls. Both tweeter's were blown so I can't comment on this set up? I have a pair of Waves that I am going to use with my Heresy's for the bedroom. I am thinking about getting a Placette Audio 1 SS preamp. I will use my POS Rega Planet 2000(it has been in the shop since August). The main reason I'm writing is to add the Heart 6000 CD player to your list.If ever get my Rega back I am going to do a head to head test between the two. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Try very hard NOT to listen to audiophiles who a) dont like the same kind of music as you do do not have any where near as sensitive loudspeakers as your big old horns, including those who have 95dB/w/m horns. They do not know or want what you do. 100dB/w/m horns are not like other loudspeakers. Their ultra-sensitivity puts them into another league. The difference between 100dB/w/m and 95 dB/w/m sensitivity is as large as the difference between a .300 and .400 batting average. Pro ball versus varsity. Each improvement I made to my big old Cornwalls improved the sound. I started at the front too: CD player, tube pre-amplifier, dampening, isolation platforms. Yet nothing made as big a difference in long term listening enjoyment as the addition of my Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours. Therefore, I do not recommend improvements from the front-end of the chain. Loudspeakers are the voice of the system, improve them first. The amplifier is the heart and soul. Improve that next. While the Mac and Klipsch marriage is reputed to be one of the few SS and horn combinations that are easy enough on the ears to endure, I have not heard any modest price receiver or amplifier which could do what a tube amplifier could do over the long run: not wear out your ears. My feelings are that any tube component will improve the long term listening capabilities of the ultra-sensitive big old horns. Since I am suspicious on any product from Carver, after my own experience with his noisy 750 watt per channel amplifier on my Cornwalls, I would suggest starting there. Because of the bump in the mid-bass (100Hz) and the treble (5-7kHz), I resorted to the non-audiophile component of an equalizer (gasp!) to cut some 3dB from these areas (no more, or you degrade the response in other areas). This made a very noticeable difference in many aspects of the Cornwall performance over the long run and made the big old horns much more listenable, accurate and enjoyable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 dbflash & colin...thanks for your input! I'll definately look into the Heart 6000. Heard great things about the Placette Audio customized preamps, but they're too rich for my tastes right now. Because of my limited budget at this time, I'm forced to make due with my Cornwalls and Mac amp (which I love anyway; they do make a great combination). Your Bottlehead monoblocks would make a believer out of me to be sure, and if I win the Klipschorns from the Storyteller contest, then I'd be set for life. As it is, my best bet is to purchase another tube preamp when my finances permit me. My previous AMC was a good entry-level preamp, but it's time to move up in quality...an updated PAS-3 or its revised Sound Valves would definately be a good start, an EICO, H.H. Scott, Fisher or Marantz, up to any from conrad-johnson, Audio Research, McIntosh, etc. (all used, of course). When I had my AMC and was running my home-made 15" subwoofer with an AudioControl Richter Scale crossover, I used a Carver M-400t "cube" amp to power it. Like you, it caused a hum to be heard through my Cornwalls, so I had no choice than to replace it with an old SAE A205 200 WPC amp...no more buzz! Eventually, I'll replace my Carver CD player with a 24 bit/96 kHz tubed player, but for now it'll have to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 How do you like your interconnects? Were these your first choice or did you upgrade to your present configuration? Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 Danny, I started out with MIT Terminator 2 interconnects. These were a major improvement over the el cheapo gold-plated Radio Shack ICs I first used. Unfortunantly, the bass never seemed to tighten up with the MITs, even after over 100 hours of burn-in time. I had Cardas CrossLink ICs elsewhere in my system, so I knew that Cardas would be a welcomed choice for my Mac. Audio Advisor had a clearance on a meter pair of demo QuadLink-5C, so I thought I'd give them a try, and ordered them. A few days later Audio Advisor called me and said that they mistakenly sold the demos I had ordered to someone else...for their mistake, they gave me a single demo and a brand new single, all for the same price as the demo pair. The QuadLink-5C interconnects are 16.5 AWG, with rich, full midrange and good, tight bass. These ICs offer more sonic details and greater transparency than the Terminator 2s, which are decent in their own right. The improved imaging of the Cardas seem to blend well with my components. I'm satisfied! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Thanks, I should have my Cornwalls going in the next week or two (waiting for tweeters to be repaired). I'm always checking out new IC's and I will put these on my list. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 When I had my tube preamp, between the preamp and my CD player was a meter pair of Modern Audio Design (MAD) Pearl 1 interconnects: http://www.modernaudiodesign.com/ The Pearl 1 is a flat configuration (Nordost-style) silver-plated copper wire with a 1" thick Teflon coating, and terminated with four rhodium(?) locking gold-plated RCA connectors (also balanced XLR). This interconnect is extremely detailed, with thunderous bass and perfectly articulated, endless treble. They're an outstanding value, and as soon as I purchase another vacuum tube preamp to connect my CD player to, the Pearl 1 will go back into my system once again! Check 'em out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Food for Thought From the book, Paul Wilbur Klipsch, The LifeThe Legend In Acknowledgements: We are indebted to many a person for their assistance in writing this book. Mike Sanders of Quicksilver Audio, for helping us bring out the best in our Klipsch loudspeakers over the last 15 years. (for those of you who dont know, Quicksilver manufactures tube amps, triode in particular)(no, this is not a plug for Quicksilver). Paul & Mike (Sanders) were hanging out in the Hard Rock Hotel on the eleventh floor at the CES in January 2001. Mike asked Paul what he thought was better for the Klipschorn, tube amps with pentode tubes or tube amps with triodes? He (Paul) stared right at me (Mike), let a moment pass, and very powerfully said What the hell do you need a pentode tube for with a damn Klipschorn when all you need is damn triode tube, for godsakes? Me? I use both SS & triode tubes (generally, not at the same time). The SS gear is on all the time. Its used for more general & practical things such as practicing or learning songs while playing along, parties, background music, etc. The class A triode tube amps are used only for "serious" listening. This is primarily because the power amps I use have a circut design which uses a special driver & output tube which has been out of production for more than 20 years. Fortunately, I have a decent supply of these tubes. However, since these tubes are not only expensive, but also very difficult to come by, I choose to use them only when I'm actually LISTENING to music. Kind of like opening a bottle of fine wine to be enjoyed with a special occasion dinner. I am not as offended by SS as some of the other posters here or elsewhere. Under my present listening room conditions (dedicated acoustically tuned room) SS, for some reason, doesn't seem to bother me as much. Makes me wonder if the crummy room acoustics that most people have to put up with isn't responsible for exaggerating the worst qualities of SS gear in a similar way that Klipschorns have gotten criticized for bad sound when it was really the associated equipment or sources that preceded them that were responsible for the poor sound, both then being further aggravated by poor listening room acoustics. That being said, IMHO, my SS gear doesn't hold a candle my tube stuff. My wife doesn't think so either. Neither does anyone who's listened to my system. Can I live with SS if I had no other options? Of course. The bottom line is, if YOU like it, and YOU are satisfied, don't let ANYONE tell you otherwise. Its your ears, your brain, your preferences, and your money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 The bottom line is, if YOU like it, and YOU are satisfied, don't let ANYONE tell you otherwise. Its your ears, your brain, your preferences, and your money DAMN Straight! Especially Artto! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Is this is another one of your insinuating comments KH? I see you really don't have anything better to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 A little sensitive again, Artto? Personally, I found that closing line unnecessary but I sure didnt call you a jackass. Leave it to you to move to that level. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 As far as I'm concerned, that's certainly what you implied (again). So as far as the jackass part goes, "It takes one to know one". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Beautiful. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 REALLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 18, 2003 Author Share Posted January 18, 2003 Damn straight is right! Poster artto makes sense. Although I like to get different opinions concerning what gear is suitable for Heritage horns, and how certain gear can either enhance or ruin the sound of the loudspeakers, it's also the room which houses the system. If that room isn't tuned for the equimpent, I can see how the poor Cornwalls can get blamed for being harsh. Unfortunantly, due to circumstances beyond my control at this time, I don't really have a "dedicated" music room...yet...but I will. Even though I have heard considerable improvement when upgrading/rolling tubes, replacing interconnects and speaker cables, upgrading components, etc., the spare bedroom I'm using right now is only temporary. Eventually, I want to move my system into the formal living room in my house; it will need considerable room treatment because it's a rather "live" room (this room has been used for intimate "concerts" for family and friends due to the pipe organ my dad built years ago, plus it's home to the family 1888 Estey reed organ and a 1898 Steinway & Sons upright piano). Sorry for getting off the topic, but I have been happy with my SS Mac amp and my previous tube preamp (most likely I'll buy another tube preamp in the near future). But like you said, if it sounds good to you, that's all that matters most...I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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