leok Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 They're breaking themselves in downstairs in the living room with the RF-7s. 1st impressions (this is with what looks like Ken Rad 2A3s and new electro-harmonix 6SN7s): They are clear, have plenty of bass, and are very dynamic. I get an idea about the midrange raves .. very clear and solid. Right now I have a cold that has destroyed my hearing so while the amp breaks in I can get better. Nice amp. This is going to be a lot of fun. By the way, as far as my stopped-up hearing could tell, on some very busy, and loud, passages from Beethoven's 9th, the Moondogs don't sound at all compressed or bogged down. The sound stayed dynamic, and clear (remember, loud for me is probably not so loud for most of you). Thanks to Kelly, Daen, and everyone else who helped me understand and make this move. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Ah, there you are! I was just getting ready to email you. I tore one of my RF7's down today -- and I've been staring at the crossover. I want to pick your brain. Moondogs are cool, I'm glad you're happy. Just think how good they'll sound when you can actually hear:) You ever do anything with the wire in the RF7's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Look forward to hearing about the amp. You will find it opening WAY up when the Jensen Oils break in, not to mention the rest of the components. I dont imagine it sounding up to snuff for another week or so. One could say my amps are now officially "broken in." Indeed. Although this sounds a bit strange to many, my amps dont come into their own until being on for few days. BIG improvements after a few hours when they slowly relax... then still more improvement for up to a week, believe it or not (probably not). As everything settles in and you are listening suddenly you will turn your head and go "Ohhh....lord." And you'll know it's there. It's a strange happening and I still experience it after they are off for any period of time, which hasnt happened in a while to the tune of over two months or so. Enjoy the realization. Not too many on this forum have heard that type of playback. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Mobile, I can easily believe that they sound better when warmed up. I see it every day when rebuilding these and completely concur on break-in. Everything has to settle to its proper operating temperature makes perfect sense. The longer there on the more stable the temperature becomes hence better sound. Although I just can't bring myself to waste that kind of electricity to leave my amps on for months on end let alone the cost of the tubes. I just turn them on and let them warm up for a hour before listening. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Well, I cant say I wait an hour before listening. I probably generally let my tube amps warm up a about 3-5 minutes before playing. The Mullard GZ-37 rectifier is SLOOOOOOOOW start on these beasts. AT least 30-45 seconds before full power is even going in there. 3-5 minutes is fine for waiting to listen. But dont expect it to sound relaxed until at least an hour. After about an hour or so the improvent is pretty large. But as I said, some of these caps like the Black Gates need a LONG dame time. Even my ELNA Cerafine need some time (I got a big beast). I find that every accident I have EVER had with a tube amp has been turning them ON or OFF. My Cary preamp has literally been on for over 10 years unless I leave town (has a standby). I have lately been leaving the Moondogs on all the time since I ahve been inside and listening 90% of the time. As the ole saw goes, when does a lightbulb blow? When you turn it on! heh... I do turn my EICO off these days...at least over night 80% of the time. But running your tube gear via a lot of off and on cycles is a definite no no. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Leok, what are you running in the 6SN7 and rectifier slots? Invest in some Mullard GZ-37 for the best midrange. I think I wrote you the 6SN7 recommendations. GOOD NOS mixed here offers the best. I dont like matching tubes in the 6SN7 spots - some combos really work. I would also really order a pair of Sovtek 2A3 as your workhorse. They are bulletproof and offer the best bang for buck and can be thrown in without a care as they take anything. And they sound very good considering. Cant remember what wire you are running buy good IC an speaker cable are needed to make these things sing. Also, the preamp is VERY important and I have forgotten what was engaged. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Congratulations Leo! Like Kelly, I tend to leave my Moondogs on much of the time because I listen every morning and evening. The sound is more relaxed when they have been on for some time. I've tried turning them off and back on at the beginning and end of a listening session, but I prefer leaving them on for the best sound. I've been running my Rogers 2A3 Blackplates for the last week, and it's taken some time for them to loosen up and I still expect more improvement. At least to this point, they have a different sound than the 40's RCA Blackplates. A bit heavier in the lower frequency range, not quite as rich in the midrange. This is not a bad thing, just a different sound. If you are pleased with your's half as much as I am with mine, you have many hours of listening pleasure coming your way. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 I've already had a little 6SN7 lesson: I had an old 1952 GE pair installed that sounded smoother than the electro-harmonix, but one of the GEs was defective. I'll be picking up some alternate NOS tubes, and the Sovteks. Wires are Monster interconnects and Audioquest GR8 speaker. No preamp, just the Creek passive .. and still, more than enough gain. The amp's buzzing is my first area of focus. I'm used to dead silence with the pp and Tripath (in a pp amp, output ps noise cancels). I should be able to bring it down some. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Leak, How about some pictures of your pride and joy ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 Pictures .. I have to figure out how to operate my son's digital camera. That can't be too hard. Buzzing: now no buzzing. It was my error. I improperly grounded the 6SN7 heater circuit. Now the amps are silent & I can do some real listening. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I've written this before and I'll write it again...quickly. I have the Creek OBH-12 passive pre as well. It's a nifty little passive that offeres remote capability (when it's not broken as mine is). My advice, whether you want it or not? heh... You need a GOOD active tube preamp. Although I love the little Creek for how it stays out of the way and is about the MOST TRANSPARENCY for the least ducats, there is no substitute for a GREAT tube active stage. Your 2A3 Moondogs are really helped out here in that the quality active stage with NOS valves(heh) will flesh out the midrange and give the presentation more dynamic drive and a certain "bloom" that the presentation lacks via the passive unit. I used to switch the passive in and out quite frequently for its take...but now it pretty much resides in another system or dormant on the shelf. Although Ron and others think the passive option is a star, a good 6SN7/5692/5691/6SL7 etc line stage brings the SET system to another level of involvment. I find the passive to be intellectually stimulating to a degree while the active tube gain stage to involve the SOUL and emotions. Leok, you might consider my friend's 6SN7 SRPP line stage. He isnt making $ on this. $975 for Klipsch Forum loons. I'll be getting Chris Robinson's order here for some more pics and a review/comparison with my Cary and anything else on hand. Chris' pre will have Jensen Copper Foil Oil on one set of outputs and possibly a Russian Foil Oil on the other (or Auricaps/Hovland/MIT). That is Chris' chassis you see top left (hand oiled black walnut). I believe Dale is getting the same treatment (wood wise). I believe there is also a move to the satin black copper top. I have a page with all the specs and info up if you want the link (see cover of trans he is trying out too). Ole Jeff said he stunk his whole house up hand polishing and oiling those chassis a few night ago. I think it's an improvement over the orginal mockups. When the price goes up, I wont be mentioning them on here. As for now, this is too good a deal for what's included. My apologies for the excitement here. IF not going that route, I think the little Wright Sound WLA-12a is a great unit for cheap. Some mods in there and who knows what it would do. I just love this little pre for the money. I think George Wright is the most reasonable of the slightly bigger manufacturers... REgardless, you owe it to yourself to try a good active tube line stage. Perhaps you can borrow one from somewhere to see. It's a great mix with the Moondogs and SET in general. I advise everyone to have a passive if you can...but not as the only option. kh ps- Yeah, I like screwing with graphics at 2am. I havent slept in three days....heh pps- A big THANK YOU to Chris Robinson is also needed as he did sone research and put together a great method for doing the chassis. If not for him, it wouldnt look as good (and Jeff's poor arms..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Here's an idea, Leo ... since you're "just down the street" from me, when Kelly's done with the Pantheon, I'll bring it on by with the CBS 5692's that I'm using. You'll get a really good idea of what kind of sound we're talking about. If you don't want to bite on the Pantheon but like the 6SN7 approach, I'll be selling my wonderful-sounding AE-3 (with oil caps) pre-amp. It's a great sounding unit and would be a bargain deal for less than $500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Chris, I didnt know your AE-3 had the oil caps? ARe they the ones that AES uses or the Jensen Copper Foils that Cary employs? Sometimes they will put Jensens in the AE-3 if you ask. I didnt know you had oils in that one. That is good to know as it helps my dilema with your cap choice. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Maybe along the way I forgot to mention that. Duh ... sorry. I don't know what's in there but it was the AES "standard" oil (no Sherman Act joke) ... On their website it looks like they use "Audio 1" oil caps but I could be wrong. The sales receipt doesn't indicate what they used. One of these days I'll pull the bottom off for a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Leok, I hope you enjoy your amp as much as I like my Wright's. Chris, I think that they put in Audio 1 caps. Did you have AES do any other mods when you bought the AE3? For $500 someone is getting a very nice pre if you do sell it. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Chris, If someone else doesn't have dibs on that Preamp let me know when its avialable I'll take it off your hands for sure !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprocket Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Leok Congrats on the Moondogs. I'm eager to hear more from you as they mature. I too will need to hunt for a tube preamp to be an appropiate comrade for my amps. Presently the Wright unit (no pun) mentioned occasionally on this forum looks good. I like its small foot-print. Does anyone here use this pre? If so what are all those knobs on the front for? Also does anyone have pictures of the inside? It seens so small that I imagine it to be cramped inside. RB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Craig, no one's expressed any interest on the AE-3 ... If you're interested, I'll cut it loose for about $495, shipping included. It was about $725 new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Chris, Is it a AE-3 signature or just a AE-3 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 Kelly, I'm going to hold for a while here and listen. Also, there are a few other system details that I want to spruce-up, like trying Jensen caps in the RF-7s. Chris, That would be great. In fact, even at your place, if I could just hear the difference between a passive and active line stage, that would help me understand. After working so hard to minimize the component count (active and passive) betwen the source and speakers, I'm struggling to get the logic to go the other way. If there was distance involved, maybe, but for my application I can't buy shorter interconnects. Anyway, for now I have some new sonics to adjust to. The amps have been running all day and are smoothing out. The sound is clearly outside of anything I've ever heard. Most remarkable is the way the amp cruises through traditional areas of amplifier difficulty (sibilances, cymbals, violins, etc.) so that I find myself wondering "What was so hard about that?" when, in fact, it's the first time it has sounded right. In general, my initial impressions of the Moondogs: They are way beyond what I expected. The sound is exceptionally clean, with good high and low frequency extension. I notice better dynamics. And something I really didn't expect: No noise. I don't even know they're on. Everything sounds better through a Moondog. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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