Erik Mandaville Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 I would appreciate it if some of you might offer suggestions on a replacement CD player. I've spent so much time doing surgery on my amps and preamps, that I've neglected my most frequently used source -- a Denon 1015 CD player. It's many years old; I have cleaned it inside and out several times; and it's now have tracking problems towards the end of many CDs. This seems to get worse month to month. I have always really like the Rega players, but I just can't afford anything like that right now. I'm serious in saying that I'm curious about what some of you have found in 'consumer-grade' single play CD players. Or would a 96/24 DVD player be a better option right now? I have very little experience with front end components (that shouldn't be the case, but is!), and was wondering if any of you have found something inexpensive ($200 or under)that sounds much better than it costs? I even bought my Denon used from a Hi-End audio store that went out of business -- it was used as their floor model before I got it at a discount. So the thing has seen better days! Thanks! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 As you may or may not know, I am a proponent of PC based audio servers for a number of reasons, including cost performance. For about the same price as a Rega, you can have 24/96 record/play, complete random access to your collection, and many other benefits. I am on my third iteration, the MBS-3, and now planning the MBS-4. Not going to go into a rant here, as some folks are just plain prejudicial to PC's in the audio coop and won't listen. As for me, I am definitely a vintage most things fan...but it's ridiculous to talk vintage digital, and downright silly to stick to a one disc at a time high priced player when you can do MUCH better. I'd be happy to provide a software/hardware breakdown if you are interested, and even build you a better one for a lot less than those that are being marketed commercially. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted February 17, 2003 Author Share Posted February 17, 2003 Hi, Mallett: Yeah, I guess I'm a little silly. I even still get up out of my chair to flip over one of those big black discs! But your point is well-taken. There is newer technology available for those who want or desire it. I don't know enough about it to judge, but I can have an open mind. Just as literary translations leave some small bit of information -- something very subtle or nuances for which direct translation my be difficult if not impossible -- I wonder that some of this may in some small way also be true for such an audio playback system. But maybe I'm missing something. How many times does such digital information/signal get processed before it hits a preamplifier? Would you mind going to the trouble of providing a sort of verbal flow-chart that traces the signal from its origin to the listener? Just something very brief to give me an idea -- I'm interested in how this works! What other hardware besides a PC is needed? Thanks for your response! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Erik, I would suggest you get a Sony SACD unit. The Sony SCD CE775 is a 5-disc changer, but nevertheless is a great machine. It is no longer made, but they are for sale on audiogon.com and ebay. I think they started around $400 and then were discounted to around $200 approaching closeout. Or you could get a Sony SACD/DVD player brand new at BestBuy for somewhere around $200. Any SACD will also play CDs. If you read the reviews, you'll find lots of people raving about how good these sound on CD playback. But where they really shine, of course, is with SACD. I don't think you'll find anything better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Erik, I agree with the Sony SACD recommendation 100%. Can't beat it for the money. If you get "itchy", you can always mod it or have someone "mod" it for you. My brother-in-law recently got the cheap ($165 - brand new in the box) Sony DVD-SACD player that got rave reviews in the Absolute Sound (June 2002 issue?). It sounds great with his Cornwalls & 2A3 amps. I've had the Sony S9000ES DVD SACD player for over 2 years. Sounds incredible & built like a brick "outhouse". Try to score a SACD player on Ebay. You'll probably find a bargain. Audios, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted February 17, 2003 Author Share Posted February 17, 2003 That SACD player is in fact one I remember reading about. I'll have a look! I actually prefer single to multi disc, but at that price and performance ratio, one can't be too picky, I guess. Maybe it would be nice to have the convenience of a multi-disc changer. Thanks for your help! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Good. I appreciate the query. BTW, I am 53 years old and stuck in my ways in lots of things...but not when it comes to audio. I am all tubes and heritage. I use a 1936 RCA BK3A for critical recording, and vacuum tube preamps. But when it's time to record the signal, it's done with the best digital I've been able to find. Again, rather than a rant, a simple chain as you requested. Redbook is a pretty hoary technology. It's a mess of error correction and never plays the same bits twice when played in a Redbook audio CD player, no matter how expensive. The chain: >Extract the CD info via software. You don't even need a soundcard to do this as it is a pure digital operation. The best software will take as much time as required to compare, compare, compare until the best approximation possible of the Redbook info has been copied. >Store as a wav file. This will never change again. It will play precisely the same without need for error correction. You may, if you wish, further compress this file by 20-40% with shorten, which is completely lossless. >Playback with software through a top of the line audio card. The best are comparable to the best outboard DAC's available, and a heckuva lot cheaper since they don't need any jitter correction or other processors. I'd never heard CD audio acceptable to my live concert and analog ears until I did this. "But maybe I'm missing something. How many times does such digital information/signal get processed before it hits a preamplifier?" So the answer to this is NEVER. The information is never transcoded or processed in any way. Let me through another tidbit at you as an analog addict: LP's recorded at 24/96 are unbelieveable. Not QUITE as good as off the TT, but close enough to where you'll prefer to keep you LP's in the sleeves except for the occasional demo. But wait, there's more. Digital clip and pop removal works like we always wanted...except it does absolutely nothing except when there is a pop or click to remove. What I mean is, most purists never liked outboard P&C removers because it's another piece of chain. But SOFTWARE does NOTHING to the signal unless it sees whatever you've defined as a click or pop. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted February 17, 2003 Author Share Posted February 17, 2003 Thanks, Dave: This sounds interesting! We have a PC we are not using, which could be devoted to a setup similar to what you propose. Still, I am not very fluent in current digital technology -- at least as it relates to the type of system you are talking about. What would need to be done to the surplus (but still in very good shape)CPU in order to take advantage of this? Do you know of a website that could help educate me a little more -- including pictorials of hardware required and involved? My wife is a DBA far more better with computers than I -- so I at least have someone who is patient and understanding of my hobby, and who could help me out! What is the source of the music, though? Are these MP3 files, or something? I've just never done anything with this, before! I know this sounds idiotic, but where does the signal go from the computer? There aren't any RCA jacks on the back, and require that connect to my preamp. Again, I say all this at the risk of sounding totally ignorant -- it's because I am! Thanks for your help and explanation, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Dave, Is $400 a target price for this DIY PC audio only build? For CD playback do you think this is better than the Rega Planet? Let's see if we can highlight the components The Hardware CASE w/QUIET FANS: PROCESSOR: P3 or greater? New Celeron OK? QUIET DRIVES: CD-RW: AUDIO CARD: M-Audio? VIDEO: nothing special for this audio only application Cables from Pre-amp to audio card: Rhino? The Software: * recording, edit, jukebox Sound Fordge? I've kinda delayed thoughts of an HTPC but for audio this might be easier. For full HTPC the parts start to get expensive such as adding DVD playback, TiVO and HDTV tuner. Today I simply use NERO WAV Editor and MusicMatch Jukebox connected to my factory PC card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 I responded to Erik off list on this. However, as he seems to be leaning towards doing this on an existing CPU, those who are interested can stay tuned to this thread as I talk him through it. Does it sound better than a Rega Planet? I have NO intention of touching that and setting off the ensueing debate. I will say this-I am a dedicated analog head who compares everything to the live experience. For me, this is mostly superb musical instruments played by the finest musicians. I am often lucky enough to hear this at 10 paces. I am a hard case. That said, I have found the PC based systems I've designed and built capable of playing CD's in such a fashion that I hear only two things: the limitations of the medium and the music. I listen to quite a few CD's these days. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. The fact that I recognize my own fallabilities is one of the reasons I am trying to get some of these device out into the hands of more objective minds. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 I went through many iterations of source equipment for digital (CD) playback. First was a low end NAD CD player (once I got past the 5 disc Sony) and it didn't sound much better than the Sony. I was actually disappointed. $300 down the tubes, I thought. Then I got an external DAC (MSB Link III) and used the NAD as a transport. Somewhat better, but not much. $400 down the tubes, I thought. Then I had Channel Island update the DAC with "better" components. After breakin, I thought I could barely discern an improvement. $275 down the tubes... I added a Monarchy DIP anti-jitter device and things got much better. Smoother, less sibilance. $100 well spent I thought. Then I finally replaced the NAD CD player with a Theta Data Basic transport (transport only). Wow. I even took out the DIP at that point in time. More detail, not as rolled off as the Monarchy, something truly classy about the performance now. This was real music, finally. $400 well spent. I used three different digital cables, all sounded a bit different (You 'cables is cables' people can shoot me). "Man with one watch always knows what time it is; man with two watches is never sure". This uncertainty actually drove me nuts and I finally decided to go with a one box player. Got a highly touted Rega CD player. OK I guess but not great. Nowhere near what the Theta/MSB could do. Then I got an Audio Note CD1. Well over twice the price but surprizingly not very discernable audibly between the Rega and the AN. Finally I got a Theta Miles. Wow. Combine a transport better than the Data Basic, with one of those cute Pioneer Stable Platter drives (upside down disks), a high end DAC, some high end data filtering, and a top notch analog volume control, plus seven discrete power supplies, and you get a Theta Miles. Since I got the Miles I have lost all interest in upgrading the digital front end. Now if I can only get to that point with analog.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 >Combine a transport better than the Data Basic, with one of those cute Pioneer Stable Platter drives (upside down disks), a high end DAC, some high end data filtering, and a top notch analog volume control, plus seven discrete power supplies, and you get a Theta Miles. Don't know what that costs, but I'll bet not cheap. Part of the point for those of us trying to achieve high end CD playback on a budget is elimination of a lot of that stuff. If you use Exact Audio Copy or similar error-correcting software to extract the CD, then a 15.00 CDROM drive is as good as the most expensive you can buy. Once the files are corrected and stabilized, you don't need to do anything else to them so your DAC simply needs to be quiet and accurate. Your top notch analog volume control is then located on your preamp. Again, no way I can say my player sounds better than the above or any, but it's a lot cheaper than most and does a lot more for the money. BTW, I've identified a couple of very quiet, absolutely gorgeous cases that have just come on to the market. Seems I'm not the only one working in this area, though I suspect most of these are aimed at the HTPC market. So what...I need the same things. I've also found a dead silent CPU cooler at 99.00. Uses WATER, yes water. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Double post. Sorry. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 hey randy what happen to all that "junk" from MSB, Monarchy and audio note? and what about the theta transport? in a closet? tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC14576 Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Personally, don't buy Sony audio products. I own a Sony 5 disc changer (CD445) and have recently found out that it has trouble reading recordable cds. It's all garbage! TV's yes, audio no. I know personally two individuals who had their ES receivers burn up on them. Don't take a chance on their audio products...it's just a name! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 I'm not a well-to-do audiophile. I have to sell all my old stuff to get new stuff, so it all went out via audiogon over time. Periodically this is a bummer because I'll sell good stuff for crap, or have to spend time waiting after selling one thing before another thing becomes available. The Theta Miles can be had for around $800-$900 nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Dave, I listen to music thru my computer. I just plugged in a cable, (same size as my computer speakers). and ran it to my integrated amp,(creek), where I plugged it into the aux connection. I listen to internet radio beethoven.com and get great sound! As far as cd players so look at cambridge audio, thru the audio advisor web site. They work well and are about 225.00 or less. regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Dave, Water coolers are a wonderful concept. In practice, however, the question is not IF but WHEN they will leak. Regardless of familiarity with computers, everyone should know that springing a water leak in your computer will not be a good thing. I am in the computer industry and have lots of experience building PC's and a good deal of familiarity with a variety of sound cards. I have plenty of PC's at home and would be willing to give this a listen - have boxes of components but expect much of this would be too aged to be of great value. My questions: All modern processors generate a great deal of heat and require substantial cooling - no biggie and easily accomplished but the loudness of these fans are quite high. There are a variety of fans on the market which seek to minimize their noise signature but are still quite high. Unless you are setting one up remotely, I would think it disturbing particularly at lower volumes? Which components in the audio chain are you currently using in software/hardware? Soundforge? Creative Labs? Inputs from CD-Rom or phono-preamp, converted to wave, and playback? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Quick response to the cooling issues, details on the system later. I have not tried the water cooling yet, but I do not much fear leaks. The company seems sound, reviews are good, reserviors and hose appear to be high grade. Nobody in their right mind would market this with the potential liability of leaks unaddressed. Most of the safety issues have been solved by the aquarium industry. However, I do not see that as the best approach and there are several less exotic ways to quiet things. My Shuttle SS40G is too loud. Not so loud as to be audible at normal listening levels, but certainly an issue at low levels and doing studio recording. In the original MBS-1, I purchased an 85.00 power supply replacement from PC Cooling and Fans. It was very quiet, barely audible above the very quite (33dbA) background of my room. However, the Shuttle has a very specialized fan system due to it's small size and high heat. I've corresponded with them about the fan, but haven't located a quieter replacement yet. For the MBS-4, I am looking into a couple of cases, 2 from Antec and 1 from Ahanix, that are supposed to be designed for AV use and very quiet. The Antec Fusion case is downright gorgeous. It's black, horizontal, has silver flip down doors to cover the external drive bays (there are 2, another advantage), and big round feet like the Sony and Pioneer turntables used to have. Quite civilized and appropriate to the listening room. Plus, I've seen the list suggested at about 100.00. Anyway, neither is available yet but expected soon. In fact, expect a LOT of HTPC oriented cases and such soon. It's catching on in a big way. That's a good thing for us in audio, as what's good for an HTPC (appearance, quiet, etc.) is good for us. I started down this road about 3 years ago, so I've been through most (well, I HOPE) of the mistakes already... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Quick response to the cooling issues, details on the system later. I have not tried the water cooling yet, but I do not much fear leaks. The company seems sound, reviews are good, reserviors and hose appear to be high grade. Nobody in their right mind would market this with the potential liability of leaks unaddressed. Most of the safety issues have been solved by the aquarium industry. However, I do not see that as the best approach and there are several less exotic ways to quiet things. My Shuttle SS40G is too loud. Not so loud as to be audible at normal listening levels, but certainly an issue at low levels and doing studio recording. In the original MBS-1, I purchased an 85.00 power supply replacement from PC Cooling and Fans. It was very quiet, barely audible above the very quite (33dbA) background of my room. However, the Shuttle has a very specialized fan system due to it's small size and high heat. I've corresponded with them about the fan, but haven't located a quieter replacement yet. For the MBS-4, I am looking into a couple of cases, 2 from Antec and 1 from Ahanix, that are supposed to be designed for AV use and very quiet. The Antec Fusion case is downright gorgeous. It's black, horizontal, has silver flip down doors to cover the external drive bays (there are 2, another advantage), and big round feet like the Sony and Pioneer turntables used to have. Quite civilized and appropriate to the listening room. Plus, I've seen the list suggested at about 100.00. Anyway, neither is available yet but expected soon. In fact, expect a LOT of HTPC oriented cases and such soon. It's catching on in a big way. That's a good thing for us in audio, as what's good for an HTPC (appearance, quiet, etc.) is good for us. I started down this road about 3 years ago, so I've been through most (well, I HOPE) of the mistakes already... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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