Dave Mallett, thanks for the guidance on LP to HDD...

[ChrisK]

Dave,

You really got me going on this and the info gathering has been interesting to say the least. Right now, I'm slowly working on a LP to HDD setup. I came across the following post on an email (phonogram.net) list I belong to. It involves a discussion on blank CD-R quality. Geez, and I used to think I was OCD about some things. Is it possible that the issues discussed in the following can really make a difference? Let me know whqat you think.

copied from Phonogram.net -

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:55:52 -0500

From: "F. Craig Callahan"

Subject: Re: Sound of (CDR) Black.

"Platt, Bruce" wrote:

> The vinyl CDRs are blue on the recording side. I wont attempt to spell

> the name of the chemical, but it is bluish in color.

There are several different dyes used for CD-Rs:

cyanine (patent=Taiyo Yuden) and metallized azo (Verbatim/Mitsubishi) are both

blue

phthalocyanine and advanced phthalocyanine (Mitsui Toatsu) are essentially

transparent

Formazan (Kodak Japan) is light green

(The Formazan dye is a hybrid cyanine/phthalocyanine combination developed by

Kodak.)

The dye color interacts with the reflective layer to produce the color you see

when you look at the disk: gold disks will look either green or gold, while

silver discs will green or blue (cyanine-based disks will generally look green).

Obviously, manufacturers other than the patent holders use these dyes, and of

course manufacturing quality can vary greatly. There are roughly 20 CD-R

manufacturers. Those that manufacture high-quality disks include Taiyo Yuden,

Mitsui, and Kodak (is Kodak still making CD-Rs??). Manufacturers to avoid

include Ritek and CRC. TDK has, or has had, a plant, but not all TDK disks are

made by CD-R--I have a few made by Ritek.

You can't always tell by the brand name; for example, Imation CD-Rs have been

made by Taiyo Yuden, but also by CRC (I know this from experience--I've got

fifty 700MB Imation CD-Rs someone can have cheap). The Verbatim disc I have was

made by Mitsubishi. However, there are applets you can download that will read

the ATIP code and tell you--usually--the manufacturer. I say "usually" because

my Sony CD-Rs report they were manufactured by Sony, but as far as I can

determine Sony doesn't have a CD-R factory. Nonetheless, this will at least let

you weed out those CRC and Ritek disks. Generally speaking, discs made in Taiwan

are to be avoided.

I won't go into the supposed advantages of the various dyes, other than to point

out that cyanine-based disks appear to have the least longevity and the poorest

reflective qualities. I've included a link below that discusses this stuff in

more detail.

Another thing to keep in mind is that CD writers seem to be optimized for

certain CD-Rs (much like cassette decks were optimized for specific tape

brands). In my own case, I experienced significantly better results when I

switched from disks bought at random (Sony) to disks from one of the

manufacturers recommended by the drive manufacturer (the drive is TEAC, and the

recommended disk is Mitsui). Also, unlike commercial CDs, which are stamped,

CD-Rs have a pre-cut spiral groove, and if you have an older drive that expects

a 650MB disk, results with 700MB disks may not be the best. Finally, it seems

that CD writers are optimized for specific write speeds. In the old days, you

probably got your best results at a 1x or 2x write speed, but apparently today's

faster drives--and the CD-Rs they use--are optimized for faster speeds,

determined by the rated speed of the media. A lot of CD-R traders insist that

CD-Rs be burned at 1x for best quality, but it would seem that this based on

nothing more than an assumption about how the technology works rather than on

hard information. It may be that the only way to know for sure is to make some

test disks at different write speeds and then check for write errors using one

of the available shareware apps--something I intend to do myself one of these

days, since my relatively old CD writer maxes out at 6x and a lot of the better

CD-Rs currently on the market are rated for 12x and faster.

The other thing I would say is that it's difficult to know whether you're

getting a quality CD-R just from the brand name. In my own case I decided it was

worth spending a few pennies more per disk to buy from a vendor that sells disks

by manufacturer rather than consumer brand; that is, a vendor that sells Taiyo

Yuden or Mitsui disks--I bought my Mitsui disks from Media Supply in PA:

http://www.mediasupply.com/

A few links (some of these pages are rather old, but I don't think that affects

their usefulness):

http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_quality.shtml

all about CD-R technology and brands

http://www.cdfreaks.com/document.php3?Doc=91

links for ATIP-reading applets

http://www.mrichter.com/cdr/urls.htm

Somewhere in here there are links to error-checking applets :-)

http://www.cdrfaq.org/

Hope you find this helpful. A tip of the hat to Stan for his mention of Taiyo

Yuden some time back, which got me started on my search for information about

and sources for quality CD-Rs.

Craig

end of copied message

Sorry so long, but I really am curious.

Regards,

Chris

[Mallette]

Some of that I sort of skimmed as irrelevant, but let me tell you my experience.

>There are no sonic issues in CD blanks of various types. They either hold the information or they don't.

>I burn Redbook at 48X on a USB external drive with rarely a coaster made. Takes about 3:30.

>I have a stack of 90 or so disks bought on bargain closeout at Staples that can only be burned at 4X or less, and even then often fail.

>The 100 pack Verbatim 80:00 I bought to replace them work fine at full speed and didn't cost but a couple of bucks more. 48X certification is not a requirement, but if you want to be completely safe, look for it.

>I don't worry a lot about longevity, as I think most available discs will outlast the owner baring damage.

>Always burn from an image, otherwise you are prone to audible glitches.

>80:00 extended discs work just fine on my 8 year old Sony CD changer. I doubt there are many old CDROMS around that would have issues with them. It is not a standards change, just a bit more real estate used. If the head can track far enough (and I've not seen one that would not), they will work.

Dave

[Audio Flynn]

In reading this and not knowing what to do.....

Since I was listening to some of NOS 440 half speed mastered vinyl this week, maybe it is a bit low resolution to just put such a nice source just onto CD.

Can you make a 24 bit 88,000 cycles per second file and burn it to a dvd?

How many minutes of music data could be burned to a DVD at that sampling rate?

Is there a sound card to acomplish this?

[Marvel]

AF,

Have a look at the pdf I posted on the first page of Dave's post "A modest hypothesis on the 16 bit question." I don't know how to post the link to it. It is a pdf that explains a lot of the spec for DVD-A. And yes, many sound cards can do the 24 bit/88.2k recording. I believe his Card Delux will, as well as my M-Audio Audiophile 2696 card. The cost is just over $100 and up. Mostly up to get a good ADC. This would work well if you just wanted to play back from the PC, but I think it gets a bit tricky to put the file on a DVD. I don't have a DVD burner to try, but have considered borrowing a usb one we have at work.

Marvel

[Mallette]

Well, I just got back from doing a 24/88.2 recording of a wind chamber group. Trumpets, trombone, tuba, clarinet, bassoons, oboe, and flute.

Unbelieveable. Only way to get first class music is to do it yourself.

I should be attempting to make compatible DVD audio in the next couple of months. I do not expect it to be very hard. We shall see.

Dave

[Erik Mandaville]

It must be a blast to go out and do recordings. I would still very much enjoy hearing some of your work, Dave.

Erik

[Mallette]

I've not had time to really listen yet, as it was late when I got home, but I listened to two pieces.

One was "Providence: Adventure's Guide" by Joseph T. Spaniola. It was my second "World Premeir" performance and recording, and much more awesome than the first. Spaniola is the staff arranger and composer for the Air Force Band at Colorado Springs and won the 1995 "Best Classical Composer" award, amongst other things. It was commissioned by the soloist trombone player Paul Compton, a doctoral candidate at the University of North Texas (also Spaniola's alma mater). If you are not familiar with the UNT music school, it's the second largest in the US after Eastman, and home to the first degree program in jazz studies (1947). Marsalis group, SNL Band, and others are rotten with students from this program. Compton absolutely RULED the 'bone! More reminescent of the great 'bone players of the '30's and 40's than anyone today. He's only in his 20's, so watch for this guy. He has a CD about to be released with another Spaniola piece (not one of my recordings) called "Crossroads." Serious 'bone fans will want to watch for it.

What a piece! Talking about music is like listening about painting, so I won't try to describe it, but it was fiery and marvelously performed. More important to these pages, the 24/88.2 captured it far more precisely and closer to "perfect sound forever" than 16/44.1 redbook could ever do. No constriction, full dynamics, silky sonorites. Wow. LP heads, this is the ticket. I'll state something for controversy here: I suspect any half competent DVD player will outperform the most expensive CD player money can buy. There is no substitute for full range recordings no matter how well they(the limited range recordings) are done. LP heads know this when they compare a garage sale Dual turntable with Shure cartridge (or whatever) to even an audiophile CD player.

The other piece I listened to before bed was Malcolm Arnold's "Divertimento" for flute, oboe, and clarinet. This was the smallest ensemble at the concert, but you would never no it. I should have saved "fiery" for this one. If you don't think these little instruments can take your breath away, think again. It had seven short movements, and I was stunned when it was over because I usually track movements almost automatically. However, there were several points in this piece that so energized my nervous system with pleasure that I totally lost track and thought the audience was just lost when they broke into applause at the end. When I listened at home, the first place I experienced this caused me to jerk upright on the futon almost as if I'd heard a large digital glitch or LP pop. However, I backed it up and listened again and it was pure, clean, loud upper octave of all three instruments played and recorded flawlessly that so exploded upon my poor taxed auditory and pleasure nodes.

There are a few flaws. The conductor, former (12 years) DSO conductor John Rives-Jones, shares with the late Glenn Gould a subconscious tendency to sub-vocalize some passages. As my mic head was about three feet behind him, some of this is audible. Also, the stage had a wood floor and he (a large man) also danced around causing a bit of mechanical noise I've got to figure out how to isolate next time.

Anyway, I'll listen to the rest of it this afternoon.

So, to the original point of this thread: a BIG thumbs up on 24/88.2. Highly recommended.

Dave

[Audio Flynn]

This is intereting.

If you could take a realy nice vinyl record or out of print one and put it on a DVD at 88,000 cps and 24 bit it would be awesome.

If you can do that to old source material which could be degraded through repeated playing of the vinyl it would be a great archival tool.

And it does not need to be 5.1

2 channel would be fine!

[Marvel]

Current redbook cd technology has a wider dynamic range than most lp recordings, because of the compression that had to be used when cutting the masters for vinyl. One way around that, mention on the Klipsch forums, is to use an expander when recording the lp. The units by dbx give wonderful results, and were made just for this, as well as for the dbx discs that were published for a short time. Using something like that would allow you to utilize the dynamic range that 24 bit reocring would give, and the 88.1k sampling rate would give you the sonic detail you want.

Marvel

[Mallette]

Dead on, Marvel. I've been very up front in past posts about the fact that Redbook vs. LP is in a large extent a matter of extended frequency reponse vs. dynamic range. That's both the rub and likely the reason the pop music centered folks don't much care or understand the debate. Midnight Oil sounds pretty awesome off CD. Pipe organ or chamber music doesn't. There is no right or wrong, just personal issues and choices.

One thing is pretty basic, though. As you suggested, a good dynamic range expander, whether software or hardware, can more easily restore dynamics than any method can restore frequencies that have been discarded.

Wider range digital can and will eventually dominate audio distribution. But it will not be Redbook, and there will always be the issue of the 100 years of analog material that will never be re-issued or available to those who have no interest in understanding or learning what it takes to properly access those materials.

Dave