MidWest Audio Fest report

[Mike82]

I just returned from the MWAF in Lima and would like to share my impressions. Since I don't own a digital camera, no photos yet.

I got to meet Craig, Paul, and Indy during the show. I would have liked to have seen more Klipschsters there.

Being in Lima, accomodations were reasonable, unlike Chicago and NYC. The Wingate Inn and civic center were about as good as I've seen at other shows. Room acoustics varied quite a lot making for a difficult time for some of the exhibitors.

As usual, many of the rooms were playing music too loud resulting the usual listener fatigue.

My favorite rooms:

1. Classic Audio Reproductions- they had their Hartsfield with the primo-TAD drivers (~$14k-$17K depending on drivers, JBL vs TAD, and veneer). Source was Accuphase digital and vinyl. Amps were the Atmasphere and deHavilland. The sound- WOW! Expansive and authoritative. I can't help but think the built-in corner design of the Hartsfield have a lot to do with their low-end authority. I think a lot of Khorn bass energy can be lost in the corner placement especially is the seal isn't perfect never mind the losses from flimsy drywall. I'm seriously considering making false corners, even though I have OK corners in my room.

2. Edgarhorn- 2 rooms- one for the Slimline and the other for the Titan system. The Slimlines sounded very musical with Cy Brenneman p-p tube amplification. They do need a sub though, however the unit being used integrated pretty well.

While I liked the Titan system, it is big. The subs are a large as 21' cubic foot refrigerators and the Titan almost as massive, but still having the same footprint. The sound was excellent, 99.99% of the population won't have the room for these. Brenneman amps were used, and a Rega CD player (barf).

Best budget gear-

1. Venus Hi-Fi from Bloomington, IN had the Audio Note (digital, amps, speakers), the diminutive Jolida 301 amp and Can and Cain Abby. The $495 AN AX2 stand mount speaker with the $350 hybrid Jolida 301 made for an excellent musical presentation given the price. This was the first chance I had to hear the $1500 C&C Abby. I was impressed. The cabinetry was first rate and the sound better than I expected. I didnt find the sound to be thin as some full-range driver speakers can be and they can play pretty loud without becoming confused.

2. Larry Moore Design has his amps and an interesting horn kit. The Horn Kit retails for $500 and includes 2 Fostex drivers, horns made from car bumper material (the stuff does not resonate) and mounting kit. Along with a Dahlquist sub, the sound was decent, but definitely a small sweet spot.

The always congenial Ron Welborne was there with the Oris horn with AER-BD3 drivers. This time he used the Onken bass cabinet. Amps were his new battery powered pre-amp and the new DRD 300B monoblocks driving the Oris. Im very familiar with Rons speakers- his Maya horn system is still probably the best speaker Ive heard. This room had horrible acoustics resulting in sever bass boominess making it difficult to judge the sound. Tuning out the bass boom, the new DRD amps sounded pretty darn good. Dead quiet. I can see a kit coming this way soon.

Supravox drivers are now in the US. One interesting speaker was the full range field coil driver 215-2000 (~$2500 for pair of drivers) in a Cain and Cain cabinet. The driver had a separate power supply to power the coil assembly. Using Larry Moores SET amps, the sound was very good.

Bill Martinelli had a room. He displayed several of his horns. First rate carpentry.

I didnt spend a lot of time in the Pi speaker room. They were playing some crappy German techno disco $#!t. The sound didnt impress me either. I got a chance to see their corner horn. Pi is being more than a bit disingenuous in calling that speaker a corner horn. Its simply a dynamic speaker facing a corner. GMAFB!

Madisound had all the Fostex drivers on display along with several rear-loaded horn speakers. Very good sound from the Fostex drivers albeit the bass was limited given the size constraints of the cabinets. DIYers looking for an affordable altermative to Lowther and AER drivers should consider the Fostex.

Odyssey was there with solid-state electonics and dynamics. This was typical hi-fi sound, you hear anywhere. They repeatedly player SRV Tin Pan Alley which sounds good an almost any system.

I was disappointed with the Omega room. I made several trips back to make sure my impressions were correct. Despite using Consonance tube amplification, I found the sound anemic with all the different speakers they were demoing.

nOrh had a system set up. Theyre kinda cute and dont take up a lot of space. The souns was pretty good.

Audio Note had a room set up with their $12K 300B monoblocks, $10K preamp, and

$20K speakers (silver everything). The sound was pretty good, but $20K for the speakers? Gimme the CAR Hartsfield instead and with the remaining $3K, Ill buy a lot of music. However, the more reasonably priced AN speakers were VERY good.

I got to attend a couple seminars. A JBL history seminar was quite informative. JBL remain in business and may be getting ready to re-enter the hi-end. I especially enjoyed John Hasquins mid-range horn design seminar. He builds his own, but he also explained how one can best mate horns and drivers given minimal specs. I was bummed that I had to miss Bruce Edgars seminar as I had to leave.

All in all, a fun time. Id recommend the MWAF to anyone.

[Bill H.]

Mike,

Thanks for the excellent, well written update. I am glad to hear about Venus HIFI, they are close to me, and I was going to visit his business -makes me more comfortable, to hear he took the time to display his equipment.......... Thanks

[HDBRbuilder]

I have to wonder just WHICH "Hartsfield" version CAR produces replicas of...the original version as designed by Hartsfield...or the later version with a completely different bass bin folded horn design????

The original version fired forward and downward at an angle on a monopath, then the soundpathway went rearwards to its rear "corner apex", in a fashion similar to the bottom-most half of the k-horn's bifurcated soundpathway, whereupon it changed to a bifurcated soundpathway firing around the sides, just as on the k-horn at that point.

The later redesign of the Hartsfield fired forward then around each side in a bifurcated pathway, then back to the rear, and back forward to the front along its sides...bifurcated soundpathway almost the entire distance of the folded horn lens.

Although both of these bass bins APPEARED pretty much the same from the OUTSIDE...they were quite different in how they worked on the INSIDE! Hartsfield designed the original version, but a team of JBL engineers did the latter design and just retained the Hartsfield name on it.

Any idea of which design they are currently reproducing?

BTW...I wouldn't classify Mr. Martinellis' craftsmanship as "first-rate carpentry"...it is more along the lines of "excellent fine woodworking" IMHO!! There IS a profound DIFFERENCE between the two terminologies!

[leok]

Thanks for the review. Attending this show was not possible for me so reports, such as yours, are important. All interesting stuff.

leok

[Mike82]

i've dealt with Venus HiFi before. First rate dealer. He also imports the Daruma III roller bearings which everyone needs to use under their CD player/t-port. Brian had a chance to "introduce" them to some other exhibitors. Needless to say, they were used for the remainder of the show.

HDBR. I beleive the CAR Hartsfield were the latter design. Regardless, they sounded great.

I stand corrected on Martinelli's horns. Very fine WOODWORKING.

[NOSValves]

I thought the Hartfield's were very "Mid Fi" something I would of listening to 15 years ago

[Erik Mandaville]

Mike:

What a great report! I would have loved to have gone to this, so it's good that someone from this forum attended and was willing to share thoughts and impressions.

Being also a Lowther 'user,' I have often wondered what Bert Doppenberg's horns sound like -- they are also used on the Maya system. I considered the possibility of buying a pair to use in conjunction with my La Scalas, but I just have other more urgent needs for funds right now; moreover, I loved the way the Lowthers sounded in free air (atop the La Scalas), and plan on building an open baffle application for them this summer.

Thanks again for the great review,

Erik

[Deang]

This was the year I promised myself to be there. So much for promises.

Nice report Mike.

[J M O N]

I guess this is just further proof that not everyone hears the same or has the same tastes. Everyone heard the same systems in the same rooms, under the same conditions. The only difference would be the music being played if they were listening at different times. I also thought the Hartsfields from Classic Audio Reproductions were one of my favorites there.

Believe it or not, I was just a bit disappointed with the Edgarhorn Titans. It could very well be that I had overly high expectations with all the fantastic praise I have heard about them over the years. I don't mean to say they didn't sound good, I just wasn't as impressed as I was expecting to be. Again, this could just be from my high expectations. They stil sounded good! One interesting thing happened when they were tearing them down. Several of us we sitting listening to them as they were getting ready to pack up. Some of the guys began removing the moving blankets they had placed behind the speakers to help cover up the large glass window (which already had a thin curtain covering it). When they removed them, the gentleman sitting next to me and I both looked at each other simultaneously saying it sounded better right after they removed those blankets. Others said the same thing. They seemed to open up a bit and sounded clearer. I would have liked to listen to them that way longer, but unfortunately, they were tearing down and getting ready to pack up.

Some other observations: Nohr makes some very nice little speakers for peanuts. I took home a pair of their 3.0's for the special show price of $100/pair. They also sell amps (tube and solid state) for very little money.

One of the other rooms that was interesting was the Madisound room. I thought their relatively small speaker system comprised of Fostex drivers that can be purchased in kit form sounded pretty good and seemed to be relatively inexpensive.

The Chicago Horn club had a nice sounding set of VOTT's. There were also some interesting DIY speakers made by simply mounting drivers on a flat sheet of plywood (no cabinet). They sounded quite good considering.

All in all, it was a great show and a great opportunity to hear many different speakers. In the end, I can't say I heard anything that made me want to run out and replace my Klipschorns.

[Parrot]

The Midwest Audiofest was fun. But I gotta say, one reason I was pleased is because I heard nothing there that I would exchange for what I have already: Klipsch heritage and Eico amps. Good thing I didn't like the $20,000 a pair speakers! IMHO, any of you guys with Khorns have nothing to long for. And I kid you not, I prefer Heresies to maybe all the speakers I heard but two or three.

The corner Hartsfield speakers had shrill treble and overpowering (in a bad sense) bass. I know Mike liked them a lot and there was a handout with praiseful blurbs from audiophile reviewers, but not only did I find them inferior in every regard to my Klipschorns, they were probably the least pleasing speakers I heard at the show. Obviously not everyone would agree with me, but I was downright eager to leave the room.

I liked Bruce Edgar's Titan loudspeakers, and Bruce is a great guy. But I did not care for his Seismic Subs at all. The low bass sounded unnatural. Of course it didn't help that the ceiling and walls were rattling like crazy! The Titans sure are pretty though--probably the finest looking speakers at the place.

The worst sound of the show by far was in the Welbourne room. Mike blames the room and maybe so, but the bass was horribly indistinct and I don't know why the room itself would have been any worse than the other rooms. The vinyl I heard played was a recording of simply two acoustic guitars, and the bass we were exposed to was at completely unrealistic levels, and just always there. Sounded nothing like bass from two guitarists--maybe it was a bad case of the infamous standing wave. Mentally tuning out the continuous bass boom was impossible for me because it dominated the presentation. One thing going for Ron's speakers over the Hartsfield was that at least they weren't shrill. If this really was the fault of the room, he'd have been better off not playing them at all, because this made a bad impression.

Generally speaking, most of the demos at the Audiofest fell apart in the bass department. They were either unnaturally emphasized (did not sound like real instruments) or they didn't even attempt anything tough to reproduce. Often the source material I heard was a 100-pound female singing slow and sleepy jazz with minimal accompaniment, which is okay as long as you're never going to listen to anything more demanding. Does that include anyone?

Easily the most pleasant sound was in the Chicago Horn Club room, listening to old Altec A-7 Voice of the Theatre speakers, and that was with solid state even. Rather than wanting to exit fast, like in some of the other rooms, this system was musically involving and made me want to stay and enjoy.

It was really nice to meet other Klipsch board people, but Audiofest was definitely not the place to scout for babes. Why is this a 99% guy-hobby again?

[Parrot]

JMON,

I agree with you that those speakers mounted just on a piece of plywood sounded really good. That was my biggest surprise.

[Deang]

Little girl with guitar music is 'safe'. How can it possibly sound bad?

What a great post Paul.

A speakers true worth is determined by how it does with complexity.

[Mike82]

Having attended several CES and SP shows while I was reviewing for SoundStage!, I can attest that many system set-ups change during the course of the show. My impressions had to do not only with what I heard, but also what I've heard in the past. What kills me is the haphazard way some exhibitors set up their systems resulting in poor sound.

Paul is right. There were few items I heard that would make me consider replacing anything in my system.

The Edgarhorn room did not have the blankets on the back wall on Friday which is when I listened to them. Also, Bruce could have used a better source component than he did.

The open baffle speaker in the Chicago Horn Society was a Tannoy HPD paper cone driver with a supertweeter on top(unk brand)--- it did sound very good though. I visited several times, but didn't get a chance to hear the open baffle with anything but acapella vocal. The amps (except the sub amps) were mostly Korneff designs. PHY from France also makes a nice full range driver that works well with an open baffle design. They also offer them with ferrite or alnico magnets priced ~$2k (pr) for the ferrite and $2.4K (pr) for the alnico.

The CAR room used the Atmasphere amp on Friday and the deHavilland on Saturday. The deHaviland was more harsh sounding than the Atmasphere which accounts for Paul and Craig's impressions.

Ron Welbourne was really bummed with the room's acoustics. He, like all exhibitors, should bring TACT digital room correction devices to compensate for these potential anomalies.

JMON: I almost snagged a pair of the $100 nOrh jobs myself. Pop in a pair of Fostex drivers and you'd have a decent sounding little speaker.

[NOSValves]

Mike82 and others

I just don't swallow this room acoustic stuff. I'm sorry but any of the rooms that were used there could easily put my basement to shame acoustic wise any day of the week. While I will admit that rooms can influence the sound there is no denying that ! but some of these systems were horrible. I just do not believe a room can completely turn a system into a nightmare. If it can there is something wrong to start with. Something over emphasized , some short coming who knows. The system should still sound descent and good number of these didn't.

I believe this is why most all of us that were there from the Klipsch forum enjoyed the Chicago Horn Clubs Altec system the most even though it was being powered by a Yamaha SS receiver on the top end and a HK for the Gigantic sub at the time we listened to it. If they had the Kornoff 45's on the top and a SS for the Sub setup when we were there it would of been stunning ! I truly believe most of the systems there were tuned for the Audiophile in mind which we all know enjoy over emphasis on certain parts of there music "they like it colored" . We like a honest reproduction.

Craig

Mike82 ,

My comment on the previous post was a joke about some comments you made to me at the show ! Did it go over your head ?

[NOSValves]

One more thing guy's. Next year I think if some of you want we should rent a suite and put up a Klipsch Forum/NOS Valves room. I will cover 50% of the cost and whoever else signs up and is willing to bring part of or all of there system can split the rest. I for sure will bring my beat up Lascalas, vintage amps, turn tables and other stuff . Someone else can bring some RF series (DEAN) and so on. I think Khorn's would be a real hassle with corners and such unless Paul wants to bring his but that would be some serious work. Heck maybe Klipsch would be interested in covering some of the expense ?

I think it would be Awesome !!

Heck my RF-3's with a Heathkit AA-151 amp sound at least as good as much of what was there.

Craig

[Mike82]

Craig:

I like your idea about a Klipsch room next year.

You previously stated:

I just don't swallow this room acoustic stuff. I'm sorry but any of the rooms that were used there could easily put my basement to shame acoustic wise any day of the week. While I will admit that rooms can influence the sound there is no denying that ! but some of these systems were horrible. I just do not believe a room can completely turn a system into a nightmare. If it can there is something wrong to start with. Something over emphasized , some short coming who knows.

From your description of your set-up, it appears you are listening from a near-field environment. In that case, room acoustics play a minimal part. Additionally, the LaScalas tend to be a tad lean in bass extension (based on my experience with my Belle), so again, room acoustics aren't as critical. Additionally, your room boundaries are broken up which helps, rather than hinders, a room's acoustic response.

While I was working with Silverline at HiFi '99, after setting up the room, we noticed several bass nodes in the room causing horrible bass response. Measuring with an Ivey Spectrum Analyzer, we noted a 12-14 dB hump in the 80-100 Hx region! Switching the system configuration 90 degrees (I can't say from the long wall to the short wall since the room was pretty square) made an improvement, but there was still one spot with a hump. The same speakers in my home sounded fine.

While hi-frequency abberations are fairly easy to control, bass problems are a real stinker.

Building a good speaker is pretty tough. A litmus test a lot of designers use is anechoic room response, ie, they want a flat curve, and many pretty achieve it. Intuitively then, 2 speakers having a flat anechoic response should sound the same in any room, but we all know that isn't the case.

I agree Welborne's Oris/Onken didn't work well. I would have preferred that he used the Maya bass horn. I don't think he would have had the same problem.

For some photos, visit Audio Asylum. TAFKA Steve has posted a few.

[wireless]

Was there not a Klipsch display?

-David

[Parrot]

No, Klipsch was not represented.

I doubt we can *officially* represent Klipsch because we have no business relationship with them. But Craig, if you want a room for NOSvalves and we have Klipsch in there to demonstrate vintage amps, that seems like a great idea.

Mike, yes, they were Tannoys, that's right. Some of the different stuff I heard was hard for me to keep track of. I think someone in there said that the Tannoys we heard could be had for about $400 on eBay. The RadioShack super tweeters were something like $15. And then all you need is a sheet of plywood cut in half. When I was in there they were playing something tougher than a solo female singer, but if my memory serves, that was something that the 1.5 watt amps couldn't handle adequately. But as far as the speakers themselves, it'd be a neat thing to throw together for someone who likes the hands-on experience.

One other obvious thing, everyone there had way different tastes in music. I didn't hear any music that I liked the whole day! A lot of people brought in their own favorite stuff, and I wouldn't want any of it. But I'm sure if I'd have brought stuff in, others would have thought, What is this crap!!??

When I say something sounded unnatural, that is based on my conception of what instruments and singers sound like in real life. It is possible that some of the source material I heard was mastered poorly, like with a smile EQ. In that case, when played back on equipment that I hadn't heard before, it's hard to know how much of the blame should go to the equipment and how much to the bad source material.

[AndyKubicki]

Great thread guys! I wish I could have been there! It would be great to meet you fellow Klipschsters! I have not had the experience of hearing so many different systems either. The only other system I heard recently was the Edgar/Brenneman set up at his shop. While it sounded great to my ears, I don't know how an A/B would sound. I learned this weekend how much easier it is to do the A/B than to hear something, have a time lapse, then hear something else. Maybe I will get the chance to A/B the Khorns with Edgarhorns. Bruce suggested some changes to the bass bin that he can do. He says he doesn't like all the twists and turns the sound wave has to make. I assume doing those mods would involve me taking my Khorns to his place, so if he's game, I would love an A/B, but it would be up to him, so who knows? He also suggested modding the crossover, but I have the ALK and I don't think I want to change that. I might not even want to mod the bass bin, but OTOH, he has me interested. Once he gets back I will get more info from him. That said, I am very happy to hear that all of you, if not most, agreed that in the end, the Khorns still sounded best!

I presume that Bruce won the most personable award there?

[Mike82]

Hi Andy:

While at MWAF, I had the chance to speak at length with Bruce about Khorn mods. Bruce commented that he would mod the bass cabinet by increasing the throat size to 6" by 13" (from 3" by 13") and adding a 15" Electrovoice woofer which, according to Bruce, is a much better match having more output and greater upper bass extension.

Bruce also specifically recommended his new rectangular horn with 2" throat (w/JBL or TAD driver) as the best to use with the Khorn bass cabinet versus his round "salad bowl" horn. He commented that given the usual corner placement of the Khorn, the rectangular horn worked better. I didn't ask about which horn would work best on the Belle or LaScala.

While the bass modification intrigued me, I think I'd like to stick with the ALK and Altec 511B/808A mid-horn combo I'm currently using.