wireless Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Would anyone care to share their thoughts on the lower end of the center channel frequency range? I'm getting ready to replace my current HT Legend based system with some smaller Klipsch speakers specifically either the Rx-25 or Rx-35 series. There's one hangup though with the center speaker frequency range comparison between the rc-25 and rc-35. The rc-35 goes down to 56 Hz while the RC-25 only goes down to 69 Hz. (There's not a lot of difference in the surrounds and fronts.) For the center I need a small speaker. Almost all TV stands only have 9" between the lower shelves. The RC-25 fits the bill coming in at 9" exactly. No doubt this is not a coincidence. I'm left wondering how much this smaller size affects the sound in practice. How much DVD information is transmitted on the center at less than 69 Hz? Doing some research on the net indicates that the human voice does not go down that low. I wonder if they included James Earl Jones. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I'm not planning on using this system for music much; I have 2-channel vintage system set up for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jzoz01 Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 If you set the center to small on the reciever, nothing below 80Hz (or whatever your crossover point) will go to the center anyway. If not, a full range signal goes to the center. Definitive techless even makes an active powered center, so there must me some low end signal to the center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 EVERYTHING that is in the center of your picture comes thru the center channel,well just about...what i'm saying is that the center is NOT JUST FOR DIALOG, it handles much more than that.ex: even though i really like my c-7 center, and it is the recommended center for my klf-30's, it IS NOT an identical match and will be replaced (one fine day)with a 'hornEd-zontalised' klf-20. DONT skimp on the center channel.i roll my bass to the sub from the center ch @60Hz. avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Generally speaking, sub-80hz is non-directional, so in theory routing anything below 80hz to the sub will not affect your perception of where it is coming from. IOW, the fact the sub-80hz data in the center channel (if any) is redirected to a sub should have no effect on your perception. Of course, in reality, it isn't quite that clean due to harmonics and how quickly the crossover fades the signal (6db, 12db, etc...), so the fact that the RC-25 can go to 69hz is a good thing to handle any sub-80 harmonics or decay that make it through to the center speaker. IMO, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Hey Doug! You have virtually the same TV that I do except that it is the following year model. I like mine alot, it has a very nice picture and the price was right. I bought it as a floor model so I got a good deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOOTERDOG Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Full range baby! The wider the Fr response the better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Frzninvt - Yeah, we like it (for a non-widescreen, anyhow...). We sit about 9 feet away from it, and the picture is very crisp. The price was definitely right on mine - FREE! Boilninaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireless Posted May 28, 2003 Author Share Posted May 28, 2003 ---------------- On 5/28/2003 3:11:35 PM SCOOTERDOG wrote: Full range baby! The wider the Fr response the better ---------------- I guess you'll be replacing your La Scala's soon for "full range" speakers, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I guess since so much dialoge, center effects, and other key stuff the director wants you to hear is in the center channel, I would never skimp here. That means better (IMO) to have a "Fantastic Center" and ok everything else and a good clean sub. This configurged system will blow away a terrible center, great right and left (which will overshadow everything else) And so so surrounds with a boomy overpowering boom box sub. If you can get close to full range in your center, it is an awesome experience. Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOOTERDOG Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Wireless Still trying to figure out your comment regarding La Scala's. If you are saying because their fr is 45hz to 17khz then I can see where you are going...but not far! Then again I guess Khorns won't fit your definition either since their fr is 35hz to 17khz eh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireless Posted May 29, 2003 Author Share Posted May 29, 2003 ---------------- On 5/28/2003 9:11:05 PM SCOOTERDOG wrote: Still trying to figure out your comment regarding La Scala's. If you are saying because their fr is 45hz to 17khz then I can see where you are going...but not far! Then again I guess Khorns won't fit your definition either since their fr is 35hz to 17khz eh! ---------------- You first used the term "full-range" as in "go with full-range speakers." You tell me what it means. What is it with the Heritage speakers? The specs you give above for the La Scalas aren't that great compared with the later model Klispch speakers. What is it you're getting from the Heritage speakers besides high sensitivity? I had a pair of La Scalas sitting right beside my Forte's for over a year and the Forte's sounded better. Not louder but better. The La Scalas got loud but there was a definite boomy thiness to the bass that I didn't care for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOOTERDOG Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 "What is it you're getting from the Heritage speakers besides high sensitivity? I had a pair of La Scalas sitting right beside my Forte's for over a year and the Forte's sounded better. Not louder but better. The La Scalas got loud but there was a definite boomy thiness to the bass that I didn't care for." First we must examine the two types of speakers. The Klipschorn, La Scala, and Belle are Fully horn loaded speakers. But Boomy? These 3 models are Not Boomy. You may need your ears checked. It is ok not to like them and find another model more pleasing to your ears, but Boomy? Sometimes the electronics will make a speaker sound different. Did you ever change out your components or use a friends component to see what kind of bass response you would get with something other then what you have. Many times this can make a big difference. I think you will find that a vast majority of heritage owners would disagree with your statement on the fully horn loaded heritage line. Yes they are very sensitive and can get quite loud if you want them to. But the big advantage is how fast the bass response is and how wide the dynamics are, not to mention the very low distortion. The Forte's uses a direct radiating woofer. Traditionally these types of speakers are what most people are accustomed to. Your ears get use to the type of bass this type of speaker produces. As far as the Forte's go I think it is one of the finer speaker Klipsch produced, but if you are trying to compare them with the fully horn loaded heritage line your barking up the wrong tree. IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireless Posted May 30, 2003 Author Share Posted May 30, 2003 ---------------- On 5/29/2003 2:37:43 PM SCOOTERDOG wrote: First we must examine the two types of speakers. The Klipschorn, La Scala, and Belle are Fully horn loaded speakers. But Boomy? These 3 models are Not Boomy. You may need your ears checked. It is ok not to like them and find another model more pleasing to your ears, but Boomy? Sometimes the electronics will make a speaker sound different. Did you ever change out your components or use a friend’s component to see what kind of bass response you would get with something other then what you have. Many times this can make a big difference. I think you will find that a vast majority of heritage owners would disagree with your statement on the fully horn loaded heritage line. Yes they are very sensitive and can get quite loud if you want them to. But the big advantage is how fast the bass response is and how wide the dynamics are, not to mention the very low distortion. The Forte's uses a direct radiating woofer. Traditionally these types of speakers are what most people are accustomed to. Your ears get use to the type of bass this type of speaker produces. As far as the Forte's go I think it is one of the finer speaker Klipsch produced, but if you are trying to compare them with the fully horn loaded heritage line your barking up the wrong tree. IMHO ---------------- The LaScalas were my roomates'. He had a high-end Onyko Amp and pre-amp setup. I agree the electronics affect the sound but the 80's high-end Jap stuff strived (strove?) for accuracy. The LaScalas were sitting up at tabletop level so that hurt the base some. When you say fast bass response, how is the cone in the Heritage line any quicker than a direct radiating cone? I was making a comparision to the "fully horn loaded heritage" Lascalas and the Fortes. There was uniform agreement among those who heard them that the Fortes produced a better quality sound than the LaScalas. Again the LaScalas would get louder but they just didn't sound as good. Better than Polks and several other brands of speakers that they were compared with but not as good as the Fortes. That was the opionion of the 9 or 10 people who made A/B comparisons and their owner as well. You may want to listen to a pair of Fortes and consider selling your LaScalas on Ebay. You'd get a better sounding system in a smaller footprint. They just wouldn't be as loud is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOOTERDOG Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 I think the biggest problem you had was with the setup of the La Scala's, you had them on tabletops. They were not designed for this. In fact there are many threads on this BB regarding La Scala's and placing them on risers. Next you need to understand how a La Scala bass horn works. The 15" driver in the La Scala is mounted to a face plate that is slotted with a very small opening. This in essence squeezes the air just like any compression driver would through the horn, thus the woofer becomes much faster in it's response. The bass drivers in any of the fully horn loaded Klipsch are built this way. They have to work much less harder then the traditional direct radiating woofer to produce bass response and sound pressure. Here is a web site showing how La Scalas are built. You will notice the slotted face plate I speak of. http://baseportal.de/cgi-bin/baseportal.pl?htx=/Data/exdreamaudio/bauplaene_forum&db=bauplaene&cmd=list&range=0,20&cmd=all&Id=8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 I had Forte's for 12 years and loved them, but I traded them in a second for a pair of Belle Klipsch back in 1999. Yes the Forte' does sound real good, and they do get real loud too. I had a 300 watt per channel DBX amplifier hooked to them and they would take anything you could throw at them. I would have to disagree with them being better than the La Scala though. Yes they can produce a lower bass response (32hz) but they cannot match the speed and accuracy and sheer smoothness of a La Scala. La Scala - boomy - hah! I don't think so, no wonder they did not sound as good you had the things on tables for crying out loud. I would take a pair of La Scala's with a subwoofer anyday over a pair of Forte's. Step into my living room and I will demonstrate a system that sounds so good it will make you cry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireless Posted May 30, 2003 Author Share Posted May 30, 2003 ---------------- On 5/30/2003 2:17:24 PM Frzninvt wrote: Step into my living room and I will demonstrate a system that sounds so good it will make you cry. ---------------- Are you inviting the boys from the forum over to your place for a listen? Where do you live? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 ---------------- On 5/28/2003 8:10:56 PM IndyKlipschFan wrote: I guess since so much dialoge, center effects, and other key stuff the director wants you to hear is in the center channel, I would never skimp here. That means better (IMO) to have a "Fantastic Center" and ok everything else .... If you can get close to full range in your center, it is an awesome experience. ---------------- Roger has a good point... as the centre channel is very important. Four ideal options i see: 1) Phantom centre and sit right down the middle 2) A full range centre, same as mains 3) Setting all the speakers on small (see the many threads here on this) 4) A smaller matched centre (matched in it's high and mids) with it's own sealed sub. There was another thread about this, and i thought it can be really nice for someone who is already using mains set on large. You can simiulate 3 large speakers up front. In a way it is similarly to those who use a split industrial lascala in the center. just my 2 cents... Rob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireless Posted May 30, 2003 Author Share Posted May 30, 2003 ---------------- 3) Setting all the speakers on small (see the many threads here on this) 4) A smaller matched centre (matched in it's high and mids) with it's own sealed sub. There was another thread about this, and i thought it can be really nice for someone who is already using mains set on large. You can simiulate 3 large speakers up front. In a way it is similarly to those who use a split industrial lascala in the center. ---------------- What about just setting the center only on small and the right and left on large then picking up the slack with the sub? The RF-25s I'm thinking about using for the fronts only go down to 45 Hz anyway. The LaScala lower range is 53 Hz. This is not really a far cry from the 69 Hz RC-25 I'm thinking about using. For the split industrial lascala configuration is the center channel on the reciever set to small also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Well there are many opinions on setting different speakers on large and others on small, and how each processor redirects the sound. Even though i don't agree entirely with the article (I have set everything on large), there is a great summary of this on the Secrets of Home Theater & High Fidelity at the following link: Miscellaneous Ramblings on Subwoofer Crossover Frequencies The split Lascala could be set on large, recalling that slope of the rolloff of a ported speaker is quite a bit steeper than a sealed one like the horn loaded Lascala. Hope it's of some interest... Rob PS: Lascala's bass bin is designed to be coupled to the floor so raising it up would change it's characteristics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 RE: "What is it you're getting from the Heritage speakers besides high sensitivity?" Low distortion. High sensitivity = high efficiency. Contrary to popular modern speaker "theory", the fact is high efficiency = low distortion. Many people confuse distortion with frequency response. And also, the Heritage line were designed for optimal performance in a room corner & therefore were designed to produce a larger radiating area (angle of sound distribution into the room). The wider the radiation angle (horizontal & vertical), the more energy is 'lost', pe se', being spread over a wider area. So for instance, if a Klipschorn were designed to radiate into a narrower angle, its efficiency could be raised even higher than what it already is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.