jhawk92 Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Well, after being out of town for most of the past 3 weeks on various business trips, and a pilgrimage to Indy, I am finally able to get some posting done. Nearly two months ago, I was invited to a meeting of the New England Bottlehead forum. We got to listen to a great many number of DIY speakers and tube amps, as well as some factory amps. Being very new to tubes, it was quite a fun time. Fortunately, the fellow forum member who invited me, Reg, was there, and we made some plans to bring some of his amps to try out on the 68 Klipschorns. I didnt get a chance to listen to his wonderful Cornwalls that day, but someday we will reconvene for a Cornwall session. So, last month, Reg made the trek to my place with several amps in hand, as well as some good tunes. Fortunately I was able to just pull the K-horn speaker wires from my SS amp and hook into Regs equipment, so there was a minimum of hassle. Our source was my Denon DCD-440, which is an older CD player, but does quite well as my main music source. We ran the output from the CD player to an Acurus RL-11 preamp and from there to the various tube amps. First up was the stereo Decware Zen Select SE84, using two SV83 output tubes and running about 1.5W. We listened to a bunch of different music, both rock from my collection and jazz from Regs. Certainly the little Decware amp sounded good, but as Reg put it only with polite bass output. With only 1.5W and my 16x24 carpeted room with vaulted ceilings, there was a lot of room to fill. Next was the pair of Welbourne Labs Moondogs. I had heard a pair of these last year when I visited Edster, so I was very excited about how they would sound with my Khorns. The Moondogs use a single 2A3 output tube, and these had been modified so that you could run them at either 3.5W or 4.5W. We ran some of the same selections as we did on the Decware, first at 3.5W, then 4.5, but the sound was very similar. Looking back on it, I think I preferred the 4.5W setting, but both seemed to be not quite as bright as I remember Edsters dogs. It could be that my K-horns are not snugged into corners like his, and I could definitely sense reduced bass output, but I knew that was going to happen with my current set-up. While I love baseboard heaters in the winter for the even heating, not being able to move the K-horns tight into the corners does have a negative impact. My room is also a good deal larger than Edsters with vaulted ceilings, and we were further away from the speakers in this session. But they still sounded good and if ever a pair were to come into my possession, Id be happy. Last up was the Bottlehead Paramours, each with a 2A3 Sovtek tube, running at 3.5W. We didnt listen very long to these as Reg said they would be kind of noisy. They werent bad for kit amps, and he said he may try and tweak them some to get rid of some of the noise. While they sounded pretty good, Id take the Moondogs over the Paramours. I think Reg would too, but I wouldnt want to put words in his mouth. After a good four+ hours of auditioning, we decided to call it a day. I certainly appreciated the visit and a chance to get to listen to three different tube amps. I know Reg enjoyed listening to everything and comparing his Cornwalls with the Klipschorns. Its great that the forum members are so open to auditions all over the country! It sure makes it easier when toying with audio ideas. As far as music selections, I used my standard audition discs from Boston, Styx, Def Leppard, Eagles, Enya, and some classical selections including Phantom of the Opera. Unfortunately, I have misplaced the list I took of good jazz tunes from Regs collection, so Ill try and locate it, or maybe he can post it here. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 I would like to hear what you think about the tubes compared to your Denon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 thanks rob for the write up...very interesting...don´t take this wrong but you don´t have the k-horns snug in the corners?! then amps are not your first priority. build some false corners before making any decision regarding electronics...ok? it makes such a huge difference in the sound of the k-horns that any other thing pales in comparison. while the bass output is the most obvious benefactor of corner placment the sound across the board is really affected. warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprocket Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Hey Rob I loved those Khorns. Sure were fine looking. I was a littled suprised at how dam big they are. Tony may have a good point about the false conners. Your Khorns although sweet may be getting a little lost in that carpeted airplane hanger you call the great room. Just the same we had a great time playing tunes. I told some friends about the home theater demo that we finished up with. What a giggle. You were struggling to remember the female voices we used to adution. They were: Janis Ian, Patricia Baker and Holly Cole. Also in the line up were Pat Metheny, Boney james, Lary Carlton, Courtney Pine, Stanley Turrentine, Stan Getz to name a few. The Moondogs were sporting KR tubes for the audition but work pretty well with the Sovetek tubes also. Looking forward to having ya come to my place for another musical romp. Reg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Rob -- I'm in the process of remedying a weakness in my K-horns' bass and mid-range fullness apparently due to their not being fully set into the corners, even though each one was less than one inch away from the wall (due to door, window and baseboard moldings). I had no idea such a small distance could make a difference. Most of it was solved by cutting portions of the side grill frames out from under the grill cloth, which lets the speakers slide fully into place in one corner and fully into one wall in the other; for the remaining wall, I have to build a partial false-corner to bypass a vertical molding and partially cover a too-close glass-panel door (I suppose it will still lose some bass). The result for me was a bigger, more characteristic K-horn sound on the completed side, and hope for a similar improvement on the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted July 8, 2003 Author Share Posted July 8, 2003 Tony- Yeah, I know I need to get the false corners built. But I have a feeling that I'll be relocating to another part of the country within the next 6-8 months and I don't want to have the movers mess the corners up. But, if things don't go as planned, then I may look to build some up this year. I know the corners can make a huge difference; I have heard Edster's system and that proved to me false corners are the way to go, even if you do already have good corners, since falsies allow you to move the sweet spot around. Reg- Thanks for the kind comments. Yeah, they are big speakers, but they don't seem to take up a ton of room. But then again, they are in a very big room. LOL about the airplane hanger comment! Glad you enjoyed the HT demo. I had forgotten to mention that in my initial write-up. We first demo'ed the THX-EX sampler DVD to show off 7.1ch HT with the THX trailer and the audio-only "Jungle Sounds." Then finished off with the shootout scene from the Matrix. Still love my HT!!! Thanks for the names on the tunes we listened to. Any specific album names I should be on the lookout for, especially for the first three ladies? Yeah, I'd love to come up for a Cornwall demo. I finally got a chance to listen to some on the Indy trip at Trey's and was very impressed. Might just have to be on the lookout for a pair! Q- I must admit, I am pretty pleased with K-horns and SS, but then I have always been a Klipsch/Denon fan. The combo just sounds clean and open and true to life. The Denon PAS-5200 is a very clean unit and does equally well powering either the Chorus IIs for HT duty or the K-horns for 2-ch. It works out pretty good to have both an A and B speaker connection on the amp, so I don't have to swap wires and can use the same sources for both 7-ch music on the HT speakers or 2-ch with the big boys. I use the Denon AVR-4800 as the preamp for the K-horns and it is nice that the sub also plays in 2-ch, so any bass I have lost by not having the K-horns in the corners is covered by the SVS. I may try some music with the sub off to see how the SS really does. But I was pretty impressed with the tubes Reg brought. We never got to "Really damn loud" with his gear like I sometimes do with the Denon, but I did like the sound they put out, even the little Decware amp, though the bass impact was certainly less than the Moondogs. I was most pleased with the 'dogs, though I was introduced to them at Edster's. I could tell there was some bass missing by not having them in the corners, and the sub was not part of the tube audition. I'm not sure 3.5-4.5W could push the big speakers as hard as the Denon, but both sound really good to me. And I know proper placement will help even more. Larry- Thanks for the first-hand knowledge. It's good to know even an inch can make a difference! Who knows, I may just have to build my corners sooner rather than later. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 rob, It is a good point you mentioned, I was thinking principally of the bass response which is destroyed if the spekaers are not snug in a corner, but the sweet spot point is VERY valid...I know that my k-horns would soundstage better in my room if I oculd toe them out a little, without false corners it is impossible. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Great post. That's helpful info to have in looking to the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Great post. That's helpful info to have in looking to the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Reed Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Rob, I thought you listened to my Cornwalls when you were down here (Hope & Little Rock) for the book signing. Anyway... you need a pair. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted July 8, 2003 Author Share Posted July 8, 2003 Tony- Yeah, the ability to toe the speakers around is a great flexibility that I will want to have some day, and will be a requirement if I stay here in CT, with my "airplane hanger." Edster's room is incredible with his system and I look at that as a good 2-ch reference room, mainly because of how important good corners are, and how easy false corners make the situation. Daddy- Happy to help. It's nice to know that with all the info I have learned here in nearly 3 years that I can give a bit back. Tony- Nice to hear from you again! We missed you in Indy! Maybe next time. Yes, I did get a brief chance to hear your OO Cornwalls, and while they sounded good, they weren't in the optimium position to really appreciate them; hence my comments above. You don't know how close I was to getting the pair of vertical horns, in walnut, that were on eBay about a month ago. They were about 30-40 min drive from me, but it was very soon after my K-horn purchase, and I really didn't have a place for them (read: if I got them, I'd have been thrown out of the house and had no place to keep them out of the elements.) But maybe some day I'll get some...maybe even make up a second Heritage HT, based on the really big horns. I guess I have a good start with my K-horns! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Reed Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Rob, I agree, I need to have the Cornwalls in a better place. Problem is, I'm running out of space. Anyway... I'm now on the lookout for some verital horn Cornwalls. I'd like to have them simply because they're a "rare" item. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted July 9, 2003 Author Share Posted July 9, 2003 Tony- If I didn't know better, I'd say you were addicted! But you will probably have to resign yourself to getting them in a finish other than our fav, OO. I don't know that I have ever seen the vertical horns in that finish. Those walnut ones local looked beautiful. Maybe I should have snagged them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprocket Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Just an after-thought.............. When Rob began this thread, he referenced an audio group meeting several months ago. Many of the attendees of that mtg are Bottlehead fans. They get together to show-off Bottlehead kits they made as well as home-brewed amps, preamps, speakers ect, and audio kit of any kind regardless of manufacture. Here is a link to pics of that mtg. Remember to click on each to enlarge. link.... http://www.uvm.edu/~rboles/audio/ne_bot_may-17-03.html The point I trying to make is that many of these mtgs take place throughout the country. If you can find one in your area and attend, you may be very pleased at what you will see there. I'm sure Rob had not seen so much home-made audio in one place. SET amps and Klipsch speakers are made for each other. Reg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprocket Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Just an after-thought.............. When Rob began this thread, he referenced an audio group meeting several months ago. Many of the attendees of that mtg are Bottlehead fans. They get together to show-off Bottlehead kits they made as well as home-brewed amps, preamps, speakers ect, and audio kit of any kind regardless of manufacture. Here is a link to pics of that mtg. Remember to click on each to enlarge. link.... http://www.uvm.edu/~rboles/audio/ne_bot_may-17-03.html The point I trying to make is that many of these mtgs take place throughout the country. If you can find one in your area and attend, you may be very pleased at what you will see there. I'm sure Rob had not seen so much home-made audio in one place. SET amps and Klipsch speakers are made for each other. Reg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I really think giving the Khorns only 4.5 wpc is sad. Poor speakers are probably begging for some real power. Sure you CAN run them with such miniscule power but where's the headroom? You've got no extra watts to produce clean, tight, hard hitting bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 So you keep showing the Maxell ad with the JBLs on the floor. They are only rated at about 89db. Quite frankly, I like still having my hearing, and while I know the headroom is important, still having eardrums is more valuable to me. And I use a hairbrush to get my hair pushed back. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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