A listening test

[AndyKubicki]

Tonight I performed an A/B test of Conversations, an LP and CD of L. Sabramaniam and Stephane Grappelli in an attempt to further understand the difference between vinyl and 16/44.1 CD. I did not have the volume cranked and I usually do, this time I listened at a lower setting (only between 2 and 3 on my Scott 222D). I did this on side two of the LP and here is what my ears tell me. First of all, this is not a pop recording, and therefore I assume that the CD version did not suffer the ill effects described in the Harsh CD thread that commercial CDs face. This is a jazz recording originally issued in 1984...I'm not sure when the CD version was put out.

Listening to the violins, I heard something missing on the CD...I want to say there was more beef in the vinyl; the high frequency of the instrument was about the same in both media, maybe a little less in your face on the vinyl, bur there was something missing on the CD...perhaps some of the harmonics in the lower range. I doubt that is a mastering issue. The same effect was true for the piano. It had more range on vinyl...something missing in digital. One of the pieces actually sounded like the bass was a bit better on CD (believe it or not!) and there was virtually no high frequency loss on the vinyl except on the inner piece, French Resolution, where CD had the better sounds of the cymbals...definately lost somewhat on vinyl's inner track.

The violin and piano are good acoustic instruments for such a comparison, and here I believe, they pinpoint where 16/44.1 CD falls short. Let's not ignore, however, that vinyl too had some shortcomings...noise level, loss of HF on inner tracks, etc.

When I re- resistored my Scott, I did not do the RIAA circuit, yet from this listening, I don't think it's off by much if at all as there weren't many frequency response differences save for the inner groove which is in following of the law of physics.

I think that when we criticize CD, we need to also take into consideration the possible differences in mastering as well, and I believe there a geat many CDs that do have that 10-12 KHz bump that Griffinator mentioned in the Harsh CD thread. Some level of good sound is possible with Redbook, but it does have its limitations. I believe that this is an example of the limitaions of Redbook.

Keep in mind that both sources are not high end...a cheap Scott TT and a fairly cheap Pioneer DVD player.

[Mallette]

Loss of those cymbals from the vinyl might well be wear. Of course, there are plenty possible stylus/cartridge/tt etc. issues as well.

Dave

[Mallette]

Also, since you have a Wami, why not do recordings at 16/44.1 and up of the LP? That might be even more interesting. I've done this and found that 16/44.1 sounds, well, like a CD.

Dave

[AndyKubicki]

Ryan, I didn't see the PEC, but it's been a while since I poked my nose underneath the chassis. And I guess there's no reason for me to do so, except for curiosity nest time I'm under there I'll look.

Loss of those cymbals from the vinyl might well be wear. Of course, there are plenty possible stylus/cartridge/tt etc. issues as well.

Dave, there was no such loss on the first cut, and that was a releatively new LP. I didn't notice the HF loss until I was at that inner groove and did some switching between the CD and LP, but I'll check it out next time I play it to see how the other more middle songs play. But the HF loss, which occurs as the groove gets closer to the center and looses surface velocity is a known drawback of vinyl.

Also, since you have a Wami, why not do recordings at 16/44.1 and up of the LP? That might be even more interesting. I've done this and found that 16/44.1 sounds, well, like a CD.

Well, I suppose that brings up the question, why am I doing this. I dunno...I suppose that when everybody was singing the praises of vinyl, I got curious. Some have described the sound as less grainy, more bass and so on, but I had to hear for myself what it was about. My initial impression was that part of the difference was the result of remastering, but I had no way of knowing this until Griffinator confirmed it. Matter of fact, someone suggested it was just the nature of the medium, and it's not...at least not all of it. The presence bump that CD labels wanted on their earlier releases definately explains the difference I heard when I compared Alan Parson's I Robot CD to the LP in terms of the lead vocals and lead instruments being bright and almost shrill on CD. I guess the bottom line I wanted to get to was how much should I spend on TT vs how much on a newer multi format player. From your work and much of what has been posted in the Harsh CD thread tells me that the multi format (SACD, DVD-a, et al) is capable of delivering the sweetness of vinyl without the drawbacks. I will still have a TT because of the material not available in the newer formats yet and maybe you've got a point about making my own CDs with the WAMI. I've been avoiding that since I would like to get things working better with the Cakewalk products I have and get back to making my own music. But I have my eye on a B&O cartridge on eBay now, so as I get things together I will probably ask you for some help regarding the best software to use and so on.

[NOSValves]

Andy,

Did you replace all the resistors on the phono section 12AX7's ? If so what did you use ?

Craig

[Deang]

Ryan -- please tell me you don't really believe everything stated on your website.

God forbid anything is done to lower distortion levels in an amplifier.

[NOSValves]

Name change again ?

[AnalOg]

"Loss of those cymbals from the vinyl might well be wear. Of course, there are plenty possible stylus/cartridge/tt etc. issues as well."

I was thinking the same thing, along with a CD player issue, even a IC issue (yikes).

I changed out my stylus to a High MC, a different presentaion all together, better highs was the most audible difference.

Tom

[AndyKubicki]

Did you replace all the resistors on the phono section 12AX7's ? If so what did you use ?

Craig, I don't remember...I believe I only swapped out the plate resistors on the 12AX7s, and they were replaced with Kiwamees...

Tom, look at the post again, I first noticed the HF loss on the last piece on the LP on that side. There was no apparent HF loss in the first track, the cymbals were as clear on the LP as on the CD and nothing attracted my attention to it until I noticed the loss on that last piece. I suppose one could try tomake the argument that the tracking angle is off more as you get closer to the inner grooves, but if you look at pictures of magnified grooves with the same audio content with one set being closer to the edge and the other closer to the inner part, you will see the difference...I'll try to get what I have scanned so I can post the pics.