Erik Mandaville Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Ok For those who would like the website address for the link previously enclosed, here it is: www.aloha-audio.com/library/Tube_Fest_Talk.html I apologize for my gut-level reaction in deleting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Erik, I have seen this .. I thought, in a slightly different format. I see where you get the WE name for the way I like to use the SET output storage cap. Between these, Dean's reminder about interaction between tube output topologies and speaker impedance, and my parafeed Moondogs' love-hate relationship with the Chorus-IIs, topped of with some constant-current analysis of the parafeed drive and everything looks different. One reason I've faded off is, unless I'm just listening to the music, which I do now more often than before, what I have to say about the circuits is .. well I don't think anyone really finds it all that interesting and I can't fault them. There are a lot of things that various folks have been saying in favor of ss amps and tubes with feedback that I understand much better now. Once I was willing to trade my precious high end for some lower-mid dynamics, then the idea of trading some im distortion for a frequency response that didn't look remarkably like the speaker impedance characteristics .. etc., etc. Fortunately, while I push around such thoughts I can select between the P6D, 'dogs, pp through RF-7s or Chorus-IIs to listen to a Beethoven string quartet, Harris symphony, or Highway Song by Aztec 2-Step. Meanwhile, everything people are saying on this site makes sense in some context and how I might respond seems more & more just an arbitrary opinion that maybe even I don't quite agree with. I copied the tube output configs and have been paging through them for fun. Lynn Olsen sure has some interesting comments and good looking amps. I wonder how they're hooked up. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Leo, a brilliant response if I might say so. I'm surprised no one else has chimed in here. Maybe it's because you're a master of nuance? I would be tempted to summarize it in one sentence but that would be disrespectful. You just said a lot in a few paragraphs. Ziggy started out very slow and finally (mercifully) ramped it up. If I had my druthers, I would have put a few of his more jacked-up pieces up front, got the crowd going, pulled it back a bit and then re-ramped again to a crescendo. Of course, that's not rasta-style either. It was fun. Jack and a few other kids swan in the fountain/pool next to the "turtle", followed by an outdoor table at the Atlantic Fish Co on Berkeley. Lovely night and halter-tops galore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Leo, Lynn has been posting on the CD quality discussion that Mallet and Griffinator have been having. Maybe he will answer your questions on here. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 I hate the software used for this forum. 45 minutes on the best post I've written in 3 months and it doesn't even show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Dean, Whenever I am going to make a long post, I always write it in Notepad (or simialr app), save it, then copy and paste to a forum post. This does a couple of things for me. First, I have a record of what I posted, and second it can get posted without getting lost or having to retype it. Just a thought, Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 That's what I usually do when my brain is properly engaged. I was so excited that I actually had an original thought for a change that I just started typing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 so Dean, What was the original thought? leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 15, 2003 Author Share Posted August 15, 2003 ok, leo. Odd, isn't it, how excitement or enthusiasm can sometimes lead to wanting to quickly share a recent discovery with someone who was once also really interested in the subject at hand? Eliano's 'Ultrapath' is an example of this, and I was glad you found it an improvement. I'm fairly sure that I indicated the message was primarily intended for you. I wasn't aware that you had already seen this, and had just thought you might find it at least a little interesting. People constantly post pictures of amplifier chassis choking with capacitors, resistors, and other such electronic structures (as I did with the Horus)-- which may be impressive looking, but remain meaningless unless accompanied by at least some small amount of description concerning the role of each of those parts in the circuit design and concept. Consider the number of times you or I or Jeff L. have mentioned 'parallel-feed,' or 'Ultrapath,' or 'grid choke' or 'plate choke', etc., etc., etc. All that is as meaningless as stuffed amplifier chassis. I provided the post and my own impression of the site mainly with you in mind, but thought it might be at least mildly interesting to others; indeed, several on this forum are extremely proud of recently acquired amplifiers which were either influenced or inspired by (or both)some of the schematic diagrams provided by the enclosed link. Certainly one has the freedom of choice to go to the trouble of checking it out or leaving it alone. My reference to the 'W.E. Connection' has to do with my wish to honor the people who were probably the first to ever use it. To make that distinction is really important to me, because I believe it gives at least some small amount of credit to the inventors. You know, I agree with you concerning the difference between listening to music and listening to one's latest experiment. Of course the music should be the ultimate reason behind this craziness. I suspect I am just so wrapped up in the excitement of a new idea (actually ideaS), that it is on my mind, and the post I left directed to you was a way of just saying to someone I have thought of as a fellow solder slinger, "Hey, check this out!" And that's the story behind that. Whew! My Moondogs hit the operating table tomorrow morning for a complete overhaul. This is not something I'm looking forward to, but it's necessary. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Erik, The interest is there, but I have encountered a snag. Your LaScalas may be more SET friendly than the Chorus-IIs. I have either made an error in my output implementation, or encountered incompatability between a particular topology and the Chorus-II. I'm pretty much stuck on the triode w/ no-feedback front until I solve the problem. One possible scenario: get a more SET friendly speaker. Another possibility: get a more Chorus-II friendly tube amp. Anothe possibility: go ss. Actually the P6D is fine, but I'm looking for that high end clarity that only the SET provides .. or am I kidding myself? leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 Leo: The point of my response had mainly to do with the fact that I was in complete ignorance regarding the status of the level of your 'interest.' What means did I have to measure or discover whatever it is that is now occupying the 'audio' or music-listening aspect of your life?! Not too long ago, you were very much engaged in studying current paths related to some of the modifications you made on your amplifiers, and ended one of those threads with a statement such as, "Interesting, isn't it?" That was directed to me, if I remember correctly. I have been going through piles of past issues of Glass Audio, Vacuum Tube Valley, and more recent issues of Audio Express -- reading everything I can find on both SET and PP circuit design and implementation. On several occasions, I found articles written by (to me)fairly well-known tube DIYers who were extremely impressed with the sound of 2A3s, 45s, 300Bs, etc., in PP designs. Curiously, these individuals also had considerable previous experience designing single-ended topologies. Exploring this further, I am beginning to see and understand how a well designed push-pull 2A3 could very well be an incredibly good-sounding amplifier. To explain why would involve many more pages of digital paper than I am willing to write. I actually sort of wish I hadn't written even this much. In short, I see some sort of PP 2A3 amplifier in my not-too distant future. Much of that depends on financial factors, and right now my piggy bank isn't exactly bursting at the seams. In the end, I think your question regarding SETs as the only source of true fidelity is at least somewhat rhetorical. However, I would submit that it is a question that obviously only you can answer for yourself. I don't know if you're kidding yourself or not. However, I do think it's possible that we can become overly dogmatic about whatever means we choose to amplify our music. If a tube enthusiast suddenly finds that SS amplifiers seem to sound better, I think it's that fact -- the quality of the sound of the music -- that should have the upper hand, not whether the output device is hollow or solid. I personally know die-hard tube enthusiasts who would still use tube amps simply because they like tubes, not because the sound is necessarily better. And what's wrong with that? Absolutely nothing. The adventure should be about enjoyment and entertainment. If you have found that SS amplification is what really sounds best to you, then I think that is a good reason to be very satisfied, Leo. Find or build a really good SS design and enjoy your music all the more. If you really like the aesthetic qualities of tubes but prefer the sound of transistors, the answer is even more simple: Install two 4pin tube sockets on the top of your ss amplifier, along with a nice-looking (maybe vintage)2.5 volt/3+ A. filament transformer. Connect the primaries in the usual fashion, and connect the 2.5V secondary leads to the filament pins on the tube socket. Insert the 2A3 'of-the-day' and enjoy. You might just have the best sounding tube solid state amplifier this side of the Congo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Egads! My "original" thought? That someone should design an amp with both a common push-pull and basic SET circuit topology. The power transformers would be outboard, and the passive parts for both topologies should easily fit under a decent sized chassis. A well thought out design would physically separate out the topologies under the chassis, and color code all the wire. I think some of the more complex SET designs are built around the idea of offering additional control and dynamics for the more demanding material. However, if the unit also has a higher powered circuit -- then a more complex SET design wouldn't be necessary. I guess if it were possible to do this -- it would have been done already. It was just a thought. I have much more to say, which I'm putting in the "Simple Circuit" Thread (Bruce Moore amp). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Erik, I believe the study and work I've done on the 2A3 output has presented me with some tradeoffs that are fundamental to the technologies that they represent .. and this is exactly where I want to be. Before I add damping circuits, I want to be sure I'm not adding a band-aid to cover up a design or component deficiency. If I believe the problem represents the technologies involved (tube transfer characteristics interacting with speaker impedance, and not just a crappy transformer or the result of sending the signal through two electrolytic capacitors) then I'm prepared to develop a fix. I suspect that prior to the mods that are in what was my Moondog, the amp was probably much less load sensitive. By "perfecting" the circuits, I re-introduced problems that are inherent in the technologies used. Now it is up to me to deal with those issues to my liking (and not necessarily to Ron Wellborn's liking at all). In doing all of this, I now have a different perspective on even the worst sounding direct connect pp ss amps, and that is that they sound uniformly whatever they sound like, regardless of what they are connected to. I might not like it, but now I respect it. And if by some miracle, a ss amp would sound good, then it would sound good on most speakers to which it is connected. That's pretty cool. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Dan, You sneaked that in while I was "composing." I have to do some errands .. I'll be back to review your note. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Why in the world was the original post removed? I find this makes no sense at all and renders all the responses a bit superfluous. I saw nothing wrong with posting a link to that info and the removal seems out of place. Perhaps just post the link again with the text "some interesting info to consider involving circuits." In the Asylum, one cant actually delete a post that has been responded to. In this instance, I dont even see WHY OR WHAT would indicate a need for deletion to begin with. I thought the link was interesting as well although I composed a page long commentary entitled "The Journey to Existentialism Audio: Can Nihilism Audio be that far behind" but never hit SUBMIT. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Really, that was a neat link, and I wish I would have bookmarked it. Well Leo, there's always the Monarchy, or Creek -- or better yet -- built a nice set of Audire Audio HE12's, which have an impedance curve as flat as a ruler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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