kjohnsonhp Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 A friend brought over two pair of modern manufacturer to consumer direct speakers--towers with 2 small drivers and a tweeter (GR Paradox have a Focal and the Onix Ref 2 have a Vifa). The Ref2's are current recent release and sell direct at $2500/pr. The GR's are an older model from a N.Texas DIY shop. This sparked me to ask thoughts about the Cornwall highs. My perception was that the highs on both of the modern cone speakers went higher and had more of an "airy" sound. They provided more high-end detail. Do the Cornwalls roll-off in the upper frequencies? They seemed to have a pleasant sound on violins, horns and vocals when playing THE MIKADO. The bigger GR's had a nice full range sound but with less resolution than the Ref2's. The Ref2's didn't have the full lower frequency sound of the Corns or GR's. When listening to the Ref2's I thought about mids and highs and a natural sound from instruments in this range...with the others I started following the bass lines. I played all three first with the Outlaw 1050 and then added the Carver C500 (250w/ch) and then the Scott 355/Dynaco ST-70 combo. The Carver added a much fuller sound but seemed to emphasize the sharpness of the highs--kinda piercing. We removed the Carver. I'm not sure the tube combo was a good fit for the modern speakers....more time would have to be spent as we didn't spend enough time w/vinyl and tubes. With my Corns this is the combo I like better than the Outlaw. The electronics for this session aren't high-end but at least they were a constant. My guest said the Ref2's sounded night and day better with a $4k Wadia CD-player and nice $2.5k integrated amp...I guess that goes w/o saying. I really enjoyed the Ref2's and would recommend them if I could integrate a sub to fill in the lower frequencies...today they didn't seem to have enough bass guitar, chello, drum and of course Madonna disco beat for a Cornwall owner, but I thought they excelled in other areas. A quick comment by my guest on the Corns and tubes was that the system had a nice balanced sound but a bit rolled off on the highs. I think it would be interesting to live with a modern pair of cone speakers like KEF Ref205's or even Monitor GR60's and better electronics for a month to really understand the differences. I'd also like to spend more time with the analog system. I'd be interested any comment about these observations. This was a rush job. What would be of interest for further investigation? It seems that making the move to modern cone speakers means big bucks on getting quality electronics and for the full deep bass either a well integrated sub or the more expensive models with bigger boxes and drivers...ie Kef Ref205, SF Cermona, mbl 300e, B&W 802, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 ---------------- On 8/23/2003 5:17:36 PM kjohnsonhp wrote: A quick comment by my guest on the Corns and tubes was that the system had a nice balanced sound but a bit rolled off on the highs. ---------------- I actually haven't thought of the Cornwalls ever being like this with tubes, albeit good ones ... Most complain of it being the other way ... or as Dean describes, "a sonic hole being drilled into your forehead ..." (or variation thereof) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted August 23, 2003 Author Share Posted August 23, 2003 I think the Corns can certainly be piercing but that doesn't take the absolute highest of frequencies or treble detail. The skull piercing sound of my Carver and Cornwalls with a cheap DVD player and poor recording is different than the really high frequency detail I heard today. These modern speakers go to 30K and above...I wonder if they are a bit tipped up at the higher frequencies? Regardless I found the difference interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Whoa there, hold on a second. "Earbleeding", "head hole drilling", "hair parting", and anything else I throw out there regarding Heritage is reserved for Rock-n-Roll, Alternative, and Metal at 95db and up. I thought the Cornwalls driven by the Scott 299b sounded outstanding to a point -- after which they would completely fall apart. Though I think the squawker makes complex material sound somewhat congested, and can deliver a hard edge with some gear, I think the Heritage highs sound great. They certainly don't sound rolled off, and if anything -- sound more natural than most other things I have heard over the years. I still need to hear the big stuff with a powerful push-pull tubey with tube rectification. As far as these other speakers go -- if you can appreciate some of the things direct radiators do, but at the same time don't want to give up the obvious advantages some horn loading plays in the enjoyment of reproduced music -- you might want to give the RF-7's a listen (on gear that brings out the best, not the beast in them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted August 23, 2003 Author Share Posted August 23, 2003 The tube gear smooths out the piercing sound...not playing some of the SACD tracks from Norah Jones helps too as she attacks the amplified mic with "LEEEFT! my ..." Why the more detail and airy sound? Is that more natural or more enjoyable? these are CD comparisons since I didn't run the TT on the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 A listener, used to hearing highs with im distortion will tend to think that highs without im distortion sound "rolled-off." The Hi-Fi sound is gone. Many ss amps have enough distortion at lower powers to sound harsh, even on inefficient cone mids and tweeters. Any speaker driven by a decent tube amp, or one of those rare decent ss amps, will sound rolled off in comparison. Listen to sombody talk. Does that sound rolled off? If so .. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 I re-read your original post. Maybe the speakers you were comparing to the Cornwalls simply have exaggerated highs, or are adding their own high end distortion. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 It probably has more to do with the different materials utilized in the makeup of the tweeter. Old Heritage utilizes phenolic diaphrams, and most of what we run into now are titanium, aluminum, fabric, textile, plastic, etc. All of these have different signatures and dispersion characteristics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 I have heard the Cornwalls (Alnico drivers mid and top, and Type B crossover) at length with several different types of amplifiers. These range from low watt solid state mosfet to very low power digital amp on to vintage tube amps of various types running with EL-84, EL-34 to modern PP triode using KT-88 and EL-34, to very refined Single-Ended Triodes amplifiers with the 2A3 and 300B at 2A3 voltage. The speakers have been run with some very high quality front ends in the vinyl domain and very decent digital players as well. The Preamps have been excellent from good passive to more than a few high quality active tube line stages utilizing everything from 12AX7, 12AU7, 6SL7, 6SN7, and 5692, 5691. The last words I would use to describe my time with the Klipsch Cornwalls would be "rolled off." Driven by high quality amplification, they have one of the most beguiling and natural top ends I can think of. Indeed, this midrange on up clarity and naturalness is one of the speaker's strong suits as I dont think I have heard as natural a top end in too many places. I have some very nice ProAc speakers, a brand famous for it's top end ease, extension, and quality. My speakers are rated to 30k as well. I ran these speakers with many, many amplifiers over the last 12 years from high quality solid state to very nice tube amps (even 2A3 and 300B SET). I loved the ProAc and they could image better than just about anything I have ever heard (still do). When I inserted the Klipsch Cornwalls into my system, I was floored by the open and uncongested sound mixed with the excellent dynamics. But what pleased me to no end was the clarity and naturalness of the top end without sounding tipped up or exaggerated. Of course, feeding the Cornwalls with great amplification is really necessary to get the best from the speaker. I know many here run them with all sorts of amp solutions but with my ears, I find that the single-ended amplifier with zero feedback and good iron to bring the absolute most pure sound from these horns. As stated, others disagree. But the mixture is sublime to me. This is not to say I dont love push pull tubes. I love this as well and still place the CW in the grasp of such amps and with great results. I wont stop going here. Ultimately, they are extremely sensitive to what is in front. Many say this and it's certainly not lip service. Things can get ragged with the wrong input. But I dont believe the treble is rolled off either. I do believe that people are quite used to an exaggerated top end across the board. Many people use the top end exaggeration to make up for a lack of resolution. I sure did. But excellent tube amplification, culminating with Single-ended Triodes has THE most see-through, ultra pure resolution I have heard without sounding unnatural, a difficult balancing act. This is a rare find. I have heard other speakers that float my boat as well. But I count the vintage Klipsch Cornwalls as one of the top speakers ever made and when pushed by great gear in a decent room, reach exalted status. Some music can move them to a pain threshold and bad or mismatched gear can put a laser through your skull. But when done right, they are some of the best. I have heard many, many modern cone/dome (and other solutions) speakers at length. Everything from ProAc, Wilson Audio, Paradigm, B&W, Fried, Genesis, Vandersteen, EPOS, Sonus Faber, Totem, Meadowlark, PSB, Martin Logan, Quad, KEF, etc etc. The Klipsch are right up there with top end clarity and extension, without sounding artificial. I also dont think they fall completely apart at high volume, this depending once again on room, amplification, setup, sources, and software. That kind of blanket statement does not encompass the whole picture. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 "The Klipsch are right up there with top end clarity and extension, without sounding artificial." Yes, and you could have stopped there. "I also dont think they fall completely apart at high volume, this depending once again on room, amplification, setup, sources, and software. That kind of blanket statement does not encompass the whole picture." I didn't make a blanket statement. I confined the statement to Rock, Alternative, and Metal. I was specifically thinking of the intense stuff. Played any Mudvayne on your Cornwalls yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 I just played Mudvayne's (clever spelling)"Silenced" on my computer. That absurdity of even attempting something with that kind of compressed sound via a SET system of any kind, not to mention with HORNS, is beyond my kin. I have over 1500-2000 indie records (I refuse to type the words "alternative" oops) with many sounding heavy as a bastard. But I wouldnt even want to HEAR that on anything but inside a truck going over Niagra FAlls....heh. I have to say that many of the things one might be looking for in a high end system are unnecessary with a recording like that. On the other hand, I have hundreds of records I could say that same thing about. If you had played me Mudvayne and said this is what you are shooting for, half my amp suggestions to you would be tossed out the window as waste or the wrong path. I did get a bang out of playing that. It's still repeating as I type this. Not my cup of tea but I have some heavy stuff, just not that slant. kh ps- Lordy, Now another long as hell post will be buried within this thread, only to be read by 3 people, two who dont read english anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Ah yes -- but that sort of thing sounds very good, and is very fun through a set of RF-7's. That was a nice post -- I'm sure it won't be missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Dang, Ken, you've opened a minefield here. Only comparison that comes to mind is way back about 1972 when I was borrowing money to purchase my first major upgrade system. Lux amp, and Rectinlinear IV's. The Lux was a no brainer at the time. However, I spent several hours in several trips comparing the Rectilinears to the Heil air motion transformer speakers. I forget the brand, but I think it was ESS. Anyway, the highs produced by those things were unreal. Clean, sparkling...and eventually, in my opinion, just too much. The Rectilinears were reproducing the same freqs, but with oh so much more friendliness to the ears over time. I decommisioned those speakers about 8 years ago after thoroughly enjoying them for a couple of decades. Those ESS were really cool. Too cool. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted August 24, 2003 Author Share Posted August 24, 2003 "...clarity and naturalness of the top end without sounding tipped up or exaggerated" The statement above could very well summarize the difference I heard today. Perhaps the highs were over emphasized and I assume with an emphasized high-end there would come more detail--or more sounds I haven't heard before--or caught my attention before. Should the 17KHz Klipsch spec vs 30KHz Onix spec enter into this discussion? I read the previous comments about Cornwall doing well against 30KHz ProAcs. The term "rolled-off" probably struck a nerve from my post. It was the first time I'd ever heard that term applied to Heritage. I have heard the local VMPS dealer say I would hear more high-end detail in modern speakers but that could just be a stronger emphasis on the highs and thus more sounds than I'm accustomed. It was certainly an interesting comparison to have a different sound in my room. I've heard a lot of sytems (Meridian, mbl, KEF, ML, etc.) at stores but experimenting in home was fun. From an imaging perspective when I heard the mbl and Meridian systems the speakers seemed to disappear..part of this may be the recording but I don't get that feeling at home on my modest setup...maybe if I put the amp in mono. The $20k & $100k setups did. Dave, Perhaps you can join us for the next listening...this was a very last minute. You need to hear the latest setup, too. Also note you'll get to hear the GR's at Danny's DIY TEXAS 2003 in Oct. The Alpha line arrays should be fun as well as the Dodd Audio tube gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Anything over 17Khz, and the only person in the house that will care or notice is the family dog or cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Dean-o, that sounds good and makes a good one liner, but I ultimately think the ear/brain can perceive problems and info, even above 20khz. This has been shown to be proven time and time again with poor digital filtering done in the 20khz area. A brickwall filter does not provide joy, even though one cant technically hear it in action per say. Again, I think a lot of stuff goes on in this gray area that we sometimes ignore. I know that I sense an uncomfortable pressure in my skull going into certain stores with alarm systems. This is common for women but most men dont seem to be affected. The carrier signal is supposed to be out of human hearing. Walk in a Belks so afflicted and it's noticable. I think there are things above 17k that trigger senses. OF course, now I cant hear Audrey ask me a question... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 If I put on a test CD, and go through the cycles -- at 17kHz I hear absolutely nothing. I've even done the unthinkable, putting my tweeter in jeopardy by turning it up to 10 o'clock or so -- and still nothing. Maybe poor digital filtering throws spurious noise into the audible band? I know titanium drivers are supposed to ring at 22 Khz -- but I sure can't hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted August 24, 2003 Author Share Posted August 24, 2003 This opens the discussion about Extended Range Tweeter or HyperTweeters as KEF calls them. The marketing pitch is that flat up to 50KHz when combined with SACD/DVD-A that contains higher frequency content provides a sound that is more "airy" and natural. The crossover on the KEF is at 15k so the Hypertweeter is audible but the benefit of the content above 20K or so is the magic. It seems many seem to like the benefits. "they (Hypertweeters) deliver flat response to 50kHz and useful energy up to 70kHz. What you hear is a sweeter, more natural sound." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Is this because of the extended high frequency range these super tweeters are capable of, that a flat response to 50kHz and up will produce a more natural sound in the 17 to 22kHz range? Similar to having a 50 to 100 watt per channel amplifier for efficient Klipsch loudspeakers when only a 25 watt (or a 3.5 watt SET amp) will do nicely. Maybe not the best analogy, but you get my drift about having properly designed extended headroom...kinda like having a subwoofer that will play down to the nether regions of 16 to 10Hz; it's not so much what you hear as much as what you feel in your gut (like standing in front of an actual 32' Diapason pipe as it's being played by the organist...at low C the air pressure will make your skull explode, but it's not all that loud)! But if most humans can't really hear frequencies beyond 20kHz, then can one really hear a major difference in treble content due to the extended range of these types of tweeters? I've never auditioned a pair of loudspeakers with this type of super tweeter; am I missing out on the benefits they provide by listening to my Cornwalls? Sorry, I'm really slow this morning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Ken just to take a stab at the obvious here are you sure the tweeters in the Cornwalls are working (not blown)? With the midrange horn being so forward on the Cornwalls it is sometimes not so easy to tell if the tweeters are working. This has been mentioned several times on this forum. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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